Interesting history of DIR debate. . .

[Cave Diver]

Like Wendy said, stickers hide stuff.

Also, on backgas you typically dont mark them with anything other than your name because you never know what may be in them. Nitrox sticker doesnt mean you HAVE nitrox in it. It could be air, it could be trimix.

Usually a content sticker is put on the neck of the tank after it is filled and analyzed so that you know what you are going to be breathing. This is typically written on a piece of duct tape or something similar. When you refill the tank, it peels off easily and there is never any doubt about the contents.

Deco bottles are normally marked with your name and Max Operating Depth (MOD) only. This limits confusion about "How deep can I breath EANx 32 or EANx 36????" The max limit is marked so all you have to do is read it.

Regarding the origins of DIR, I have an article that I wrote to explain a lot of the history, concepts and practices of DIR advocates. It has been cross posted here, or if anyone wishes, PM me with an email address and I will forward it to them.

It also contains several good links to other sites with additional information and pictures.

 

[agstreet]

Knavey once bubbled...
I was reading Irvine's Equipment List and was wondering why he advocates nothing written (or stuck) to your tank except your name.

What is the reasoning behind that?

Actually, it would be your name (or initials) and MOD in 3" high letters on two sides of the tank.

The logic is that you don't need anything else on it. You need to know the tank is your's (or isn't) and how deep you can breathe it. Nothing else. This assumes, of course, that you have access to your own fill station and don't have to deal with VIP stickers and the like. Still, you don't need things like DAN stickers on your tank. You should have a list of emergency contact numbers handy regardless, so a sticker on your tank is superfluous (of course, you could always go the Popeye route and have your DAN number tatooed on your back .

BTW, G3 doesn't "belong" to the DIR "crowd" - he essentially started the movement by distilling a number of best practices from people like himself, Sheck Exley, Bill Main, Parker Turner, Bill Gavin and others into a methodology and equipment configuration that made diving safer. Jarrod Jablonski, who is the president of GUE, formalized it into a training method and agency. It's two newest instructors are Marc Hall and Mike Kane. Kane is arguably GUE's most vocal proponent, although he manages to alienate almost as many people as he attracts. George Irvine has no formal affiliation with GUE, and has actually been rumored to be distancing himself from them because of the "cult-like" mentality, that's been developing around them and Halcyon lately. Robert Carmichael is the CEO of Brownies Third Lung and Halcyon, a company that makes a lot of gear favored by the GUE/DIR crowd and who has shamelessly attached himself and his company to the DIR movement, allowing people like Mike Kane to promote his products for free (Bob is a clever businessman).

Alan

 

[diveski01]

agstreet once bubbled...


BTW, G3 doesn't "belong" to the DIR "crowd" - he essentially started the movement by distilling a number of best practices from people like himself, Sheck Exley, Bill Main, Parker Turner, Bill Gavin and others into a methodology and equipment configuration that made diving safer. Jarrod Jablonski, who is the president of GUE, formalized it into a training method and agency. It's two newest instructors are Marc Hall and Mike Kane. Kane is arguably GUE's most vocal proponent, although he manages to alienate almost as many people as he attracts. George Irvine has no formal affiliation with GUE, and has actually been rumored to be distancing himself from them because of the "cult-like" mentality, that's been developing around them and Halcyon lately. Robert Carmichael is the CEO of Brownies Third Lung and Halcyon, a company that makes a lot of gear favored by the GUE/DIR crowd and who has shamelessly attached himself and his company to the DIR movement, allowing people like Mike Kane to promote his products for free (Bob is a clever businessman).

Alan

More inflamatory BS from another questionable source! Dude, who made you the historian of GUE?

There are several new GUE instructors since Mike and Marc began teaching various classes. And I'll let one of them correct your other mistakes (if they care to).

Plenty of accurate information can be obtained directly from the GUE.com website &/or from their text "Fundamentals of Doing It Right."

 

[BigJetDriver]

:wacko: "In the technical diving sense, "tech" stands for both TECHNIQUE and TECHNOLOGY: the acquisition of esoteric knowledge in the use of state-of-the-art equipment." This quote is from "The Technical Diving Handbook" by Gary Gentile. The emphasis on the two words is mine.

I have quoted this for two reasons attached to those two words, "technique" and "technology", since a lot of this constant debating revolves around both of them.

First, increasingly better technology has made it possible for us as tech divers to do as Gary states: "We make dives to depths and durations once thought of as mad, but which now are commonplace." I, of course, am a fan of technology! One cannot fly the aircraft I fly around the world without being both awed and enthralled by it! We could not do what we do without it!

Second, the word "technique" can have many meanings. In the sense that it can mean "efficient and safe practices", I embrace it! In the sense that it can mean "one must do it this way and only this way", I abhor it!

I have, at times, been accused of being "anti-DIR" by some. I will say this as plainly as I can. THIS NOT SO! I have friends who are instructors, particularly in the cave community, who teach and practice those techniques. It works well, and is an efficient style. Further, there is never anything wrong with working to improve one's diving skills and abilities. Some of the things advocated by the DIR group are useful and practical and SHOULD be included in dive training in general, but especially should be included in the training of those who intend to do more advanced diving profiles!

There are, however, certain "spokesmen" for the DIR community who I object to completely and utterly. My second "hat", if you will, after my flying hat is that of certified police officer and police instructor. In that role, and personally, I have a real objection to the actions of sociopaths. These certain "spokesmen" put forth in print, messages that are so offensive in nature that they can only be described as psychopathic. I object to that, and believe that people properly raised in a polite society will always object to that kind of behavior!

Does this mean that I condemn people who like to dive in the "DIR Style" or who believe that it has something to offer? Certainly not! I SAY AGAIN, CERTAINLY NOT!!!

Does this mean that I will always condemn sociopaths, and those who emulate them? YES!!! ABSOLUTELY, AND ALWAYS YES!!!:fire:

So, at a guess, in reference to the original beginnings of this thread, the ruckus stems not from the more reasoned and lucid advocates of one style or another, but from those more radical in their approach! :box:

 

[Knavey]

I actually think Wendy's and others points about hidden corrosion is the "best" reasoning I have seen so far,

As for it being "superfluous"...if the tattoo doesn't fit that definition, then certainly a sticker that is one someones tank doesn't either. I have no problem with the tattoo, and right now I have no problem with the sticker being on someone's tank.

What about a painted tank...if you have a painted tank, and the sticker over the paint...?

Or are painted tanks a no-no also?

Thanks so far...please don't let this generate into a forest fire though...some of us are actually trying to "understand" some of the stuff we are reading about.

 

[Don Burke]

If you want to put a sticker on your back, go for it. No one is going to grab the wrong back and try to breathe from it. Not so with a sling tank.

Much of the DIR philosophy comes from some pretty terrible experiences. A diver who is trying to figure out which tank to switch to in very low visability after seeing one of his buddies die is probably going to need all the simplicity that can be designed into the system. I've read many of the accounts of early dives and they can be pretty hair raising.

Paint isn't a problem. The tank is going to be _some_ color anyway.

I don't fill my own tanks so my sling bottles have nitrox stickers, content stickers, and visual inspection stickers in addition to the MOD and my name. I guess that makes me a partial stroke. If I decide to become a cave diver, I'll have to regroup to get rid of the extra stickers.

If I need to put a DAN sticker somewhere, I'll go for my backplate or top band.

 

[roakey]

On my stages/deco cylinders the VCI/Ready for O2 service sticker is on the bottom of the cylinder. My LDS has no problem with this.

On the cylinder walls is only my name and MOD.

Roak

 

[agstreet]

diveski01 once bubbled...


More inflamatory BS from another questionable source! Dude, who made you the historian of GUE?

There are several new GUE instructors since Mike and Marc began teaching various classes. And I'll let one of them correct your other mistakes (if they care to).

Plenty of accurate information can be obtained directly from the GUE.com website &/or from their text "Fundamentals of Doing It Right."

No one made me the "historian" for GUE. I gave a little background about G3 and DIR. There was nothing inaccurate about the information I provided, nor was the anything really inflammatory.

AFAIK, there have been no new GUE instructors certified since Mark Hall became one a couple of months ago. Given how particular GUE is about their instructors, there certainly haven't been "several."

I'm a member of SDUE, which is how I know Marc. Marc was also an assistant for my DIR-F class although at that time (Sept 2002) he was not a GUE instructor. I don't believe Kane was either. He was flying around the country with Andrew at the time, assisting with various DIR-F classes and DIR demos, but I believe he didn't become a certified GUE instructor until the early this year.

Speaking of inflammatory, who the **** are you?

 

[WaterDawg]

Well since the VI sticker is there anyways, I dont see a brob w/ the DAN sticker, I think it would be the best place for it, If you come up and have been "hit" no one is gonna look for tatts or whatever.

No stickers is obiously the best way to go but not every one dives w/ surface support, (like GI) or on a boat (like most people).

You gotta work w/ what you got.

 

[Custer]

Knavey once bubbled...
I was reading Irvine's Equipment List and was wondering why he advocates nothing written (or stuck) to your tank except your name.

What is the reasoning behind that?

In my opinion, GI3 is more concerned with tank marking stickers and content stickers. He would rather have all stickers removed at different points of filling and diving.

Stages get MOD stickers, but, obviously, not back gas.

More info: http://www.wkpp.org./gasandmarking.htm

And:

Stages need to be permanently marked as to their maximum operating
depth in three inch high letters placed horizontally in the orientation
of the tank on either side so that the diver can see what he is
breathing, and so can his buddy, no mater where the tank is. The stage
reg is rigged with a short pressure gauge which is bent back on itself
to face the diver and held in place by bungee cord at the first stage,
The reg hose must be the octopus length. The stage regs are always
parked on the bottle and the bottle turned off unless in use. Stages are
generally worn on the left side for streamlining, and because of the
position and balance of the rest of the gear and the other hoses so as
not to interfere with the operation of any other gear, as well as the
scooter , which is driven with the right hand, favoring the right side.