Irvine resigns thread

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I didn't find the case I was thinking of, but here are some cases where the issue litigated was whether the operator of a web site was liable for copyright infringement for posting links on its site. Whether the site operator is considered an infringer depends on just what the operator knew about the sites it linked to. The short answer is that the operator is a contributory infringer if it posts links to sites it knows or should know are copyrighted works.

Napster, 239 F.3d at 1020

Intellectual Reserve, Inc. v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry, Inc., 75 F.Supp.2d 1290, 1294-95 (D.Utah 1999)

Arista Records, Inc. v. Mp3Board, Inc., 2002 Copr.L.Dec. P 28,483 (S.D.N.Y. 2002)

Read these decisions to find many more cases discussing these same issues.
 
All three of those cases apply to registered works.

What SeaJay is talking about are unregistered works.

There is a huge difference between those two worlds, and in essentially all cases, material originally published on the web does not have a registered copyright.

Without that the recovery of fees and statutory damages is legally impossible; without THAT ability, bring suit is financially suicidal.
 
WJL once bubbled...
Whether the site operator is considered an infringer depends on just what the operator knew about the sites it linked to. The short answer is that the operator is a contributory infringer if it posts links to sites it knows or should know are copyrighted works.

That's one of the bigger loopholes in Section 512. If the service provider had some control over content, then liability is possible.

Genesis, so is it accurate to state that you are agreeing that copying unregistered works is infringement, but that it's acceptable because you're too small to be sued and because the plaintiff would lose money?

If so, remember that injunctions are available and can be obtained fairly quickly and with no proof of actual damage. Proof of copying creates a presumption of damages.

Moreover, in some cases, the cost of the injunction is worth it to the client who wants to close down the infringer.

Personally, I don't rip MP3's off the Net for the same reason that I don't takes office supplies home.

Just because your theft is too small to make it worthwhile to pursue doesn't make it right. It is still theft.
 
Karl,

You're right that statutory damages and fees generally can't be collected for unregistered works. That makes it financially unrewarding to pursue a copyright action. But that doesn't mean it's not a copyright violation. Whether the works are registered or not, they are still protected by copyright. Registration just improves your recovery.

I didn't understand from his posts that Seajay was making a distinction between egistered and unregistered works. I understood him to say that he believed that copyright law does not apply to the internet. He stated, among other things, he was unaware of any cases where site operators could be held liable simply for posting links, and issued a challenge to provide him with specific case law on the point. That is what I did.
 
In this particular case, the interesting thing is that statutory damages, costs and attorneys fees are still available.

Secs. 411 and 412 provide that damages, costs and fees can be awarded for infringement if the work is registered within three months of first publication.

So there is still time for the author to register and file suit, claiming statutory damages, fees and costs.
 
Hi SeaJay


Thanks for the clarrification on your hosting provider and thanks also for your compliance with the DMCA. :)

I'm still confused and you still have not answered my question. You certainly don't have to BUT:

Issue 1: I said: "It's either yes or no with respect to your statement of: "5. There is no copyright law on the internet as of yet. "

Your answer?

Issue 2: You said: "Right. That was Gen's point, which I agree with... That y'all simply intimidate people into doing something, whether there's a law or not.

Nice.

Some of us aren't intimidated. I recommend the position"

My question: If in fact (I believe you) you obtained prior approval then your position seems to be that it's OK for others to steal stuff but you prefer to comply? Correct? This does seem a bit contradictary to me and perhaps dilutes your own position.

You said: "What I said, specifically, is that I am not aware of any case where a defendant was tried and found guilty of copyright infringement for placing a link or a proper quotation on an Internet forum, or forwarding an email... And implying that someone is guilty of copyright infringement for doing the same is unwarranted and incorrect."

You need to clearly define a proper quotation. Permit me to recount yet another story which I hope sheds some light on exactly how this stuff works in the real world.

My original thoughts and requirements: "I guess that part of this thread relates to postings on Forums and weather this data instantly becomes PD. I appolagize for missing that. Lets be clear in this respect, you clicked the agree button and in my TOS/Rules and I clearly say that I own every single word on the Forums and that I'm free to use this data anyway I wish and that other parties are required to obtain my approval before they use my content/posts. This even includes placing my content inside framesets."

What my attorney did in this case where my content was posted on another Forum was the following. It's a neat tactic for pressing the correct buttons in the correct order and those members who are also members of the bar should pay very very carefull attention :). This was a "commercial" site in that they were trying to generate a profit/revenue.

Our documnetation supporting a DMCA violation of our site per the law and request to terminate

Sent to Credit Card Gateway Company (ouch)
Sent to Affiliate Programs the site was making money off of (ouch)
Sent to hosting Company (ouch)
Sent to Google (a mild ouch)
Sent to upstream provider (a mild ouch)
CC to site owner

Poof! Site was toast in about 2 days! If you are trying to justify your position by requiring a law suit and conviction then I can't help you but it should be crystal clear to you exactly how this stuff works in the real world and if these real world stories don't disuade you then I wish you luck :)

Edit: Their are really 2 ways to explain this issue to folks. Use them both and my experience tells me that more folks understand and stop. Citing the legal stuff by our attorneys is fantastic plus a few real world stories from the trenches posted by non attorneys. which would include me. :)
 
You're right that statutory damages and fees generally can't be collected for unregistered works. That makes it financially unrewarding to pursue a copyright action. But that doesn't mean it's not a copyright violation. Whether the works are registered or not, they are still protected by copyright. Registration just improves your recovery.

You're missing something here WJL (and the "barrister")

For something to be a copyright violation, it has to be found to be one by a court of competent jurisdiction.

Otherwise its an alleged copyright violation.

Now the distinction may seem trite, but it is not. Call someone a "child molestor" and see what happens, unless of course they have been convicted of the offense.

There are a lot of alleged copyright violations that happen every single day. Virtually all of them never turn into actual copyright violations, because it is uneconomic to apply that label to them.

Those engaged in legal trickery and outright extortion love to be imprecise in their langauge in this regard, but usually do so only when threatening someone in a letter or otherwise in a form of conversation where no potentially false and defamatory statement gets published. Otherwise, they had damn well better be right about their allegations, and they can pretty easily end up being forced to prove them, which is ruinously expensive in most cases.

Injunctions are "fairly" easy to get in some cases, but is it worth it? That depends on what's going on. They're not cheap to get though - they are not automatic, you do have to file an original suit and serve process (you can't ask for an injunction without a case that it applies to), and you then have to go in front of a judge and convince the judge that irreparable harm will ensue that cannot be compensated for with a money judgment, that you are likely to win at trial on the merits, and that the balance of harms favors you .vs. the respondant. If you can do all three, you get your injunction. Where there is no registration of the work and no economic damages of significance to claim, you're screwed unless you can find (or buy) a crooked judge, as while you may be very likely (or even certain!) to win, the other two "prongs" of the test for an injunction fail.

Injunctions are an extraordinary remedy in the courts. Yes, they are granted in cases of continuing harm that have no money damage amount that will "fix" the problem. But they ain't cheap to get, and again, for an unregistered work, you can't go back to the person doing the infringing and get your FEES AND COSTS.

Again, the general case of someone posting something on the net ain't likely to get there for an injunction, and its generally foolish to even try, since you can't get fees (which will be substantial) in any event.

ESSENTIALLY ALL of the cited "high profile" cases involve registered works. Now in those cases it is worthwhile to sue, because you can get not only statutory damages but also fees and costs.

As for editorial control, that is a MURKY area, and part of why the DCMA was passed. Exactly what IS "editorial control"? There were ISPs back in my day of running one who claimed that they were immune from prosecution (not just suit!) for CHILD PORN in clearly marked Usenet newsgroups because they did not "edit" anything coming into their servers. One of them in NY state found out that was a poor line of defense, and had their hardware seized and the owners charged with a whole bunch (like hundreds - one for each actual picture found!) of felonies. Why? They had constructive knowledge based on the volume - they HAD TO KNOW it was going on, and the storage areas were clearly (and correctly!) labelled. Clearly, someone running a web board where they reserve the right to remove things (like Scubaboard) has a LOT more potential liability than someone running a webboard which does not have any active editorial - or any - control. The "worst case", in terms of liability, is a media that has actual EDITORS (e.g. a moderated forum) where there is prior restraint on posting.

I used to have to deal with this stuff all the time - literally. 10,000+ customers does that - we were getting nasty demand letters all the time.

The fun part was when some person alleged copyright infringement, it was a non-registered work, and they'd rattle the saber about naming us as a contributory infringer and also demand the subscriber's billing information. I used to chuckle at those letters and occasionally tell the sender to go screw, with a polite explanation that (1) we're probably immune from the suit anyway, (2) the complaining party can't produce a registration, thus, has only economic damages to claim, and that's IF they can establish authorship and ownership, (3) we know they can't claim or get fees or statutory damages, (4) there's no subpoena, and until there is, you can get screwed on us releasing any customer data, and (5) your mother had the IQ of a pair of shoes if you really think its worthwhile to sue us, or the customer, for republication of something you put out on the Internet, at no charge, where there are no economic damages and you can claim neither statutory damages or fees.

Not once did that from of reply draw a subpoena or actual lawsuit in response. It did draw a screaming phone call once in a while, which I would calmly inform the caller was being taped (a legal requirement - whether they heard it over their 120db yelling is open to debate) and then proceeded to pass them around the office for my, and my staff's, amusement.
 
Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
In this particular case, the interesting thing is that statutory damages, costs and attorneys fees are still available.

Secs. 411 and 412 provide that damages, costs and fees can be awarded for infringement if the work is registered within three months of first publication.

So there is still time for the author to register and file suit, claiming statutory damages, fees and costs.

Chris, I think this means you are in the "zone of danger"!
 
Secs. 411 and 412 provide that damages, costs and fees can be awarded for infringement if the work is registered within three months of first publication.

So there is still time for the author to register and file suit, claiming statutory damages, fees and costs.

Nope. Not if the infringement commenced prior to the registration.

You claim to do this kind of law and you haven't read the case law behind it? I even provided the cite for you!

You must register within three months of first publication.
However, an infringement that commences prior to the effective date of registration is immune from claims for statutory damages and fees, even if it continues past the registration date.

THERE IS NO ZONE OF DANGER. It is a bright-line test, and the only factor is whether or not the infringement commenced prior to the effective date of registration (which is NOT when you filed for it - its when it ISSUES.)

If the answer is "yes", then you are immune from a statutory damage and fee claim.

(Again, reading from the case law, and not as a barrister...)
 
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