Wrong! Proper trim is very easy to achieve in a jacket-style B.C.
Yes, you must be weighted correctly.
"Is a BP/W too confusing for new divers?" and related topics...
- Thread starter RJP
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
Yes, you must be weighted correctly.
Is a BP/W too confusing for new divers?
If I walk into a dive shop and bought a jacket BC(correct size), I can go diving within 5mins. All I need to do is set the tank strap on the BC and the rest is easy.
But if I bought a brand new BP/W[assuming I know what material to use, capacity of the wing, type of diving(single or twin or mix) etc] and have everything ready(bungee, cutter, inner tubing, lighter etc), the only chance that I will get wet is by my own sweat within next couple of hrs.
There is no such thing or very little for DIY on jacket.
If I walk into a dive shop and bought a jacket BC(correct size), I can go diving within 5mins. All I need to do is set the tank strap on the BC and the rest is easy.
But if I bought a brand new BP/W[assuming I know what material to use, capacity of the wing, type of diving(single or twin or mix) etc] and have everything ready(bungee, cutter, inner tubing, lighter etc), the only chance that I will get wet is by my own sweat within next couple of hrs.
There is no such thing or very little for DIY on jacket.
victorzamora
Contributor
Beaver: I have a much harder time achieving trim in a jacket than a BPW. My fiancee agrees. Everyone I've talked to that has been diving in both agrees. It's not impossible, it's just that a BPW seems to be more stable in a flat trim position. Yes, the bubble always rises no matter what your bladder shape is....but it just seems to like flat better in a back-inflate or BPW than a traditional jacket, IMHO. It may not for everyone.
Centrals: My LDS sells assembled and threaded BPW's. Most dive shops should be able to guide you in purchasing your backplate, harness, wing, and accessories in a way that they work together for your style of diving. As for single, twin, or mix.....I'm not sure what "mix" means, but considering I've never seen anyone diving doubles in a jacket. If your choice is jacket or BP, you're diving a single tank. If "mix" means both single and double tank, there's no good way of doing that with a single wing on a BPW....you would need two wings. Divers diving doubles should know that. My LDS was a Hollis dealership. I'll tell you now that a Hollis Alu plate, Solo Harness, and S38 wing will do a great job for anyone diving single tanks. It has the lift capacity for cold water and steels, and the alu plate allows you to dive in the tropics. Hard? Nope. Hog: Get an alu plate, their single piece harness, and their 32# donut wing. Throw in a pair of sex-screws and a pair of cambands with either of those and you'll be good to go.
Also, if it takes you a couple hours to assemble a BPW with a one-piece webbing harness, then you should reconsider what you're doing with your harness. Give me two sex screws, a Hollis Solo harness, alu bp, and S38 wing....I'll give you a divable rig in under an hour with NO tools. It'll also be a good fit for you, regardless of your body type. My LDS would do that if you bought a BPW from them....and most of the DMC's there would do it for you for free. The only reason we didn't do it often was most people WANTED to assemble it themselves. I know I did!
Last point: finding a jacket BC that actually fits you right would take MUCH longer than it would take me to assemble a BPW....even IF you had a BC of every size from every manufacturer AND you were only trying to fit one type of exposure protection and already had it on. Plus, the BPW will fit better, for longer, and will let you grow into doubles/tech/deco/cave/stages....not so true with a jacket. Best part? I could buy a high quality BPW AND charter a boat for cheaper than even mid-range jacket BCD's.
Centrals: My LDS sells assembled and threaded BPW's. Most dive shops should be able to guide you in purchasing your backplate, harness, wing, and accessories in a way that they work together for your style of diving. As for single, twin, or mix.....I'm not sure what "mix" means, but considering I've never seen anyone diving doubles in a jacket. If your choice is jacket or BP, you're diving a single tank. If "mix" means both single and double tank, there's no good way of doing that with a single wing on a BPW....you would need two wings. Divers diving doubles should know that. My LDS was a Hollis dealership. I'll tell you now that a Hollis Alu plate, Solo Harness, and S38 wing will do a great job for anyone diving single tanks. It has the lift capacity for cold water and steels, and the alu plate allows you to dive in the tropics. Hard? Nope. Hog: Get an alu plate, their single piece harness, and their 32# donut wing. Throw in a pair of sex-screws and a pair of cambands with either of those and you'll be good to go.
Also, if it takes you a couple hours to assemble a BPW with a one-piece webbing harness, then you should reconsider what you're doing with your harness. Give me two sex screws, a Hollis Solo harness, alu bp, and S38 wing....I'll give you a divable rig in under an hour with NO tools. It'll also be a good fit for you, regardless of your body type. My LDS would do that if you bought a BPW from them....and most of the DMC's there would do it for you for free. The only reason we didn't do it often was most people WANTED to assemble it themselves. I know I did!
Last point: finding a jacket BC that actually fits you right would take MUCH longer than it would take me to assemble a BPW....even IF you had a BC of every size from every manufacturer AND you were only trying to fit one type of exposure protection and already had it on. Plus, the BPW will fit better, for longer, and will let you grow into doubles/tech/deco/cave/stages....not so true with a jacket. Best part? I could buy a high quality BPW AND charter a boat for cheaper than even mid-range jacket BCD's.
Centrals has a good point. If you need to dive within a few minutes of your gear purchase, you definitely should go with a jacket. Certainly no point in wasting an hour or two configuring your dive equipment so that it will be optimal for you and your diving. I mean, who has THAT kind of time..?
You could also just go into Wally world and buy a snorkel, mask and fin set, and get right into the water.
Why shop around at dive shops for something that actually fits you well, wasting all that valuable time that you could have used getting wet?
Why shop around at dive shops for something that actually fits you well, wasting all that valuable time that you could have used getting wet?
My staff & I have tried a BP/W.
Sorry, we did not have a revelation.
As far as fitting into a jacket-style B.C., is it really that difficult?
Cost can be less than a BP/W.
What percentage of new divers go into tech.? 1% -3%
OP
I have this vision of a Monty Python skit called "Dive Shop Operator"
John Cleese runs into a dive shop in a wetsuit/hood/gloves, fins on his feet, mask on his face, snorkle in his mouth, carrying a dive flag in one hand and an AL80 in the other. He starts frantically shouting into the empty shop "Hello! Hello! Diver here! Hello! I need a BCD immediately!"
An old man (played by Eric Idle) shuffles, painfully slowly, out of the backroom. As the shop owner takes several long moments to reach the counter, we see John Cleese impatiently tapping his finned foot and checking his watch, with sweat pouring down his face. "Good God, man can't you see I'm going diving in five minutes - I need a BCD immediately!"
"Oh, I'm quite certain you want a BP/W!"
"I don't have that kind of time, my good man! Can't you see I'm about to do a giant stride at any moment - I'm going diving!"
"Will only take a few minutes. I have a BP/W in the back room. Let me bring it out for you." [Shuffles to the back room, painfully slowly...]
More fin tapping, watch checking, sweating. "Hello! Hello! Diver here! I could do a backroll right off your counter... if only I had a BCD!"
Eric Idle shuffles out, painfully slowly, with a BP/W rig in hand. "Right then, here's what you need! Check the fine workmanship of the plate. Notice the continuous webbing. Crotch strap's a work of art it is...
John Cleese, resigned to get out of the shop with SOMETHING says "Oh, fine. Give it here, let me see what the hub-bub is all about! What's this, on the strap? Blue H's? I can't quite make it out..." as he pushes his mask off his face and onto his forehead to take a closer look.
Suddenly, Terry Gilliam, Graham Chapman, Terry Jones, and Michael Palin burst into the shop, dressed as English constables yelling "Diver in distress! Diver in distress!" and carry John Cleese - in all of his diving regalia - out of the shop.
Scene shifts to outside the shop in a typical Monty Python illustrative style, showing the Bobbies carrying a diver down the street, across the countryside, and load him into a helicopter. Helicopter flys off, only to be kicked by a giant illustrated foot. The illustrated helicopter and illustrated John Cleese, - still in wetsuit, etc - crash into an illustrated ocean.
Scene changes back to inside the of Eric Idle's dive shop. A dripping wet John Cleese - still in wetsuit/hood/gloves, fins on his feet, mask on his face, snorkle in his mouth - comes running into the shop.
"Hello! Hello! Diver here! Hello!"
Eric Idle shuffles out, asking "How can I help you?"
"I would like to buy a SpareAir, if it wouldn't be too much trouble."
"Oh I'm quite sure you want a pony tank or a 40cf sling bottle. You don't want a SpareAir."
"No, I'm quite certain I want a SpareAir."
"Sorry. Can't have one. Good day..."
"But why can't I have a Spare Air."
"Well see, you're a diver right?"
"Right!"
"Right then, so there you have it."
"I don't see your point, my good man."
"SpareAir's aren't for divers. Good day..."
"If SpareAir's aren't for divers, who are they for?"
"Right. Yes. SpareAir's should only be used by people involved in 'elicopter crashes."
victorzamora
Contributor
I'm glad you tried them. I'm sorry you didn't have them setup right or give them a proper chance. If you did both, then I'm glad you like your jacket and I'm glad the market can accomodate both. I mean this sincerely.
To get one that truly fits WELL? Yes, yes it is. If you think it's just as easy as "XL" and should EASILY be done in under 45minutes at a typical shop then I'm glad I'm not in Colorado. Anybody with a body type other than what the BCD was designed for will have a hard time fitting comfortably, without it riding up or fitting awkwardly. I've probably had on close to 50 different jacket-style BCD's (lots of rentals) and I still haven't found one that fit me WELL. They all fit ALMOST. And then going from a bulky undergarment + drysuit to my shorty would throw it off.
I know. However, I said "mid-range" BCD. We can all agree DiveRite is a big (not crappy) name in diving, right? I can get a brand new Dive Rite rig all up, ready to go for $300 right now. Perusing your website, and ignoring closeouts, the cheapest jacket-style BCD on there is $350. The nicest is $893. Average is $655 (I did the math). $655-$300 = $355. That's four dives off the coast of NC on wrecks, including nitrox fills, and a hotel room.
I'm not saying you SHOULD if you dive a BPW....I'm just saying you COULD. When I bought my first BCD I didn't DREAM of ever going into tech. Now, I'm plotting a course for Trimix and I'm a Full Cave diver. Plus, the post I was responding to mentioned "twin" tanks....so I figured I would mention that with a jacket, twins aren't really an option but doubles are an option when you've got a BPW. So are stages. And ponies. And Deco bottles.
Also, I have to point this out: This thread is just mentioning that BPW's are a viable option for a new diver, and so is proper trim and buoyancy control. We're proud of the divers AND the shop involved with their instruction for making new divers look that good. As has been mentioned, they're not perfect....but they're WELL on their way to looking great. As far as jackets go, I think people buying their own BCD's should give a BPW setup a shot and not be "afraid" of it looking like tech gear. For people who want training so they can dive every other year in Cozumel, I think it's more responsible to train them in short hoses and a jacket-style BCD as it more accurately simulates the diving environment they'll be diving in. PLUS, most rentals are jackets anyway....so it would teach them to dive in rental gear regardless of geographic location or frequency of dives.
---------- Post added August 9th, 2013 at 12:35 PM ----------
OK, now THAT was hilarious!
+3 to this. RJP, have you ever considered becoming a writer? This sounds like the cheese skit, but WAY better!
I have come to this thread a few times and never had the time to post so I'm late to the party.
In reply to RJP's original question, of course it's not too complicated. the "controls" are the same and overall it's a simpler system, at least to dive.
In terms of procurement its a little different. there are suppliers like DSS that sell integrated systems ready to dive with nicely matched components, you can't go wrong here, my wife loves hers. A good shop should be able to offer a collection of components that also play nice together. For the internet shopper and they are aplenty it can becme a bit of a guessing game deciding which wing will work with which plate and what cam bands to buy and there there are harnesses....... Again customer support should be able to take the angst out of placing an order. The availability of BP&W comonents and the endorsement for general use has grown by leaps in bounds. When I started in 2005 few local shops had anything in stock and several sternly suggested that as a new diver I was not reasdy for such a system!
As for the desirablity or the need mine is a mixed story. My first 300+ dives were made with a Sherwood Avid. I had no time finding comfortable trim and nice overall behavior with this BC. I later went to a BP&W mainly because it was getting hard to stuff a puffy drysuit into the Avid. With another 300 + dives in the configuration I can't say that I find it dives one iota better. I do enjoy a good fit from trunks to drysuit. D-rings ets are where I want them and it's fun to dive something you had a real hand in configuring.
We do forever hear of BP&W revelations here. I honestly beleive that most of this is the simple fact of it being the first BC that really fit the diver correctly. Too big is a disaster and to small is just plain ugly.
In any case be wary of falling into the trap of building a DIY back inflate jacket with pads, weight pockets, accessory pockets and fuzzy dice. To do so dilutes much of the benefit of the simplified platform. Also, as a new diver with all sorts of aspirations do not buy a big wing thinking it will serve you well. Get something suited for your singles. IF you ever do make it to doubles you will probably want a dedicated rig anyhow.
Pete
In reply to RJP's original question, of course it's not too complicated. the "controls" are the same and overall it's a simpler system, at least to dive.
In terms of procurement its a little different. there are suppliers like DSS that sell integrated systems ready to dive with nicely matched components, you can't go wrong here, my wife loves hers. A good shop should be able to offer a collection of components that also play nice together. For the internet shopper and they are aplenty it can becme a bit of a guessing game deciding which wing will work with which plate and what cam bands to buy and there there are harnesses....... Again customer support should be able to take the angst out of placing an order. The availability of BP&W comonents and the endorsement for general use has grown by leaps in bounds. When I started in 2005 few local shops had anything in stock and several sternly suggested that as a new diver I was not reasdy for such a system!
As for the desirablity or the need mine is a mixed story. My first 300+ dives were made with a Sherwood Avid. I had no time finding comfortable trim and nice overall behavior with this BC. I later went to a BP&W mainly because it was getting hard to stuff a puffy drysuit into the Avid. With another 300 + dives in the configuration I can't say that I find it dives one iota better. I do enjoy a good fit from trunks to drysuit. D-rings ets are where I want them and it's fun to dive something you had a real hand in configuring.
We do forever hear of BP&W revelations here. I honestly beleive that most of this is the simple fact of it being the first BC that really fit the diver correctly. Too big is a disaster and to small is just plain ugly.
In any case be wary of falling into the trap of building a DIY back inflate jacket with pads, weight pockets, accessory pockets and fuzzy dice. To do so dilutes much of the benefit of the simplified platform. Also, as a new diver with all sorts of aspirations do not buy a big wing thinking it will serve you well. Get something suited for your singles. IF you ever do make it to doubles you will probably want a dedicated rig anyhow.
Pete
Similar threads
