Is it worth it?

[TMHeimer]

Point is, for this forum, you are giving advice to people who probably have never been on a dive boat.

*****************

Wow I didn't think my simple post would bring such debate so quickly (or to be honest, at all). "Probably have never been on a dive boat", or a similar size one? If not, doing that (maybe at least ONCE?) before diving from one might be in order. My first boat dive (dive #3 after OW):Gulf of Mex. FL panhandle 78' no problem. First dive in Nova Scotia (#22 after OW): 65', 4' waves (I imagine our conditions at least match N.J.). Ladder not suited to fin walking (he since has replaced it with new one for fins). Grab ladder, hold on, hand up fins. Oh, don't let go.... I was a newbie--what's the big challenge?

I assume by new divers never having been on a dive boat before you mean haven't been on a similar size one? I would doubt anyone at all who isn't a diver has been on a dive boat (unless as a non-diving guest of someone). As far as boats with tech. divers--I would agree this is probably not the place for a newbie, and that new divers would be not allowed (unless there are sites that can provide doable depths for all). On all the boats I've taken in NS, SC,FL,MS,TX and Panama, none of them had tech. divers. This in my experience is the usual scene.

 

[T.C.]

Point is, for this forum, you are giving advice to people who probably have never been on a dive boat. Some of them actually listen to this stuff. I know you like to tangle with others on the internet, it is all a matter of record. No problem, I couldn't care less.

Yes, and so are you. If they listen to you, they'll spend money on something they will never need. I ask an open question: who has EVER been denied a dive trip because they don't have their Boat Diver Specialty Card?

Anyone???

I'm speaking to the people who belong in this forum: You don't necessarily need a formal course, but you DO need something. The boats know this. That is why they offer things like:

Yes. You need an OW cert card. This is a NOT saying that you need a boat certification...or anything. It says that they want to make your first N. Atlantic dive safe and fun. This could apply to the Advanced Trimix PADI Course Director from California as much to the new OW diver from New Jersey. This is just like, for example, the free first dive that Captain SL8r's offers: Kyalami Dive Trip - Jupiter Scuba Diving

There is no requirement to have Boat Diver. There is nothing in that course not covered by common sense and decency toward others.

What does your instructor buddy teach that isn't covered by common sense?

 

[gcarter]

There is no requirement to have Boat Diver. There is nothing in that course not covered by common sense and decency toward others.

What does your instructor buddy teach that isn't covered by common sense?

Nobody has said such a requirement exists, at least not that I have noticed. What HAS been said, and what you are failing to acknowledge, is that there is an in between place where some might benefit from a level of training or mentoring, whether formal or informal, depending on their experience, skill, and comfort level.

You keep poking at DIR and the standard configuration approach they use, saying that one size does not fit all. Same applies here. Because you see no benefit to such does not invalidate the need that others may feel.

Common sense, which you like to refer to, just means that you have the context, knowledge, and experience to determine or figure out what needs to be done on your own. Not everyone has the same body of knowledge or experience to draw from as you and that may mean you get to look down your nose at the fact they ask for help or guidance. If you do, quite frankly, that says more about you than them.

 

[T.C.]

You keep poking at DIR and the standard configuration approach they use, saying that one size does not fit all. Same applies here. Because you see no benefit to such does not invalidate the need that others may feel.

PADI also offers a Zombie Diver Specialty course. Do you see a benefit, of any kind to that?

I appreciate your attempt to draw DIR in, but this isn't the right forum for that.Common sense is more than just knowing what needs to be done on your own. It means using your head to know to figure out how to do things to avoid offending the other divers, and conduct your dive in a safe manner. That's what you need for boat diving. You don't need alot of experience to safely conduct a boat dive. As TMHiemer stated, his third post OW dive was from a boat. Many OW divers train from one.

I'm not saying don't take it if you really feel like you need it. But what I am saying is that, like most PADI specialties, you'll get by just fine without it. A few boat trips, where you tell the crew that this is your first time on a dive boat, and you'll get more free advice and help than you ever will in a class.

In my opinion; it's not needed, and there isn't a skill or experience gap that this 'certification' bridges. And to address the question from the OP; no, in my opinion, it is not worth it.

 

[kafkaland]

A newbie's perspective here. Is any specialty worth it? It depends on your background and objectives. As to the boat specialty, I don't think I would benefit much from it. I have done a a big of surfing, and anything I have encountered yet with getting on and off a dive boat gas been less challenging than getting on and off a boat with a surf board. And the rest seems just common sense and curtesy. On the other hand, there are things that others might consider trivial, but that I would want to get training in. Ice diving in the Great Lakes is certainly among them. Some might argue that it's just bardic line and reel handling but it still scares me because it's out of my comfort zone. Similarly, I can see that a boat in a considerable swell is out of the comfort zone of someone who isn't used to rougher ocean conditions. So I'm glad that the training opportunities are offered, but I'm not sure that everything needs it's own certification. Next we'll have to get the fish ID card before we can admire the aquatic life.

 

[TMHeimer]

A newbie's perspective here. Is any specialty worth it? It depends on your background and objectives. As to the boat specialty, I don't think I would benefit much from it. I have done a a big of surfing, and anything I have encountered yet with getting on and off a dive boat gas been less challenging than getting on and off a boat with a surf board. And the rest seems just common sense and curtesy. On the other hand, there are things that others might consider trivial, but that I would want to get training in. Ice diving in the Great Lakes is certainly among them. Some might argue that it's just bardic line and reel handling but it still scares me because it's out of my comfort zone. Similarly, I can see that a boat in a considerable swell is out of the comfort zone of someone who isn't used to rougher ocean conditions. So I'm glad that the training opportunities are offered, but I'm not sure that everything needs it's own certification. Next we'll have to get the fish ID card before we can admire the aquatic life.

Good points, as well as some of those by gcarter and T.C. I guess I can see where the Boat Specialty would be helpful to some people. I couldn't imagine paying for it myself even when a newbie. But strange as it may seem to me, some people take up diving who haven't been on a boat. Then again, I''ve DMd OW courses with a student here & there who really couldn't swim worth spit IMO.

You make a good point about Ice Dving, etc. IMO it would be a better idea to take the course than to go with someone who MAY keep you safe your first time. And of course, some specialties are "meat and potatoes" and can be very worthwhile taking while others are obviously (perhaps interesting) fluff. And of course everyone will say it depends on the instructor not the agency, which makes sense.

 

[gcarter]

PADI also offers a Zombie Diver Specialty course. Do you see a benefit, of any kind to that?

It depends on what is actually covered. What skills are learned / drilled? The packaging is cheesy, but I would not dismiss it out of hand without answering that question. Again, it is about training, not cards. If it teaches skills a given diver wants help with and is packaged in a manner that makes the learning fun for them, sure there may be benefit.

Some may see benefit to the novelty value of carrying the card. Who are you or I to say they are wrong? Their time, their money.

I appreciate your attempt to draw DIR in, but this isn't the right forum for that.

Not trying to draw DIR in at all, except to point out that you are not being consistent. Does one size fit all? Are all divers the same, with the same learning, experience, capability, needs? Of course not.

Common sense is more than just knowing what needs to be done on your own. It means using your head to know to figure out how to do things to avoid offending the other divers, and conduct your dive in a safe manner. That's what you need for boat diving. You don't need alot of experience to safely conduct a boat dive. As TMHiemer stated, his third post OW dive was from a boat. Many OW divers train from one.

You still need some context for figuring things out is my point, and not everyone will have that.

Heck, I certified off of the back of a boat and had no issues (but note, my training was conducted in an environment that also taught us boat entries and recoveries). Of course, I have also towed an iceberg with a boat, and I have been out in seas / conditions I would never consider diving. The first boat dive is, for some, their first time on a boat with no idea what to expect.

I'm not saying don't take it if you really feel like you need it. But what I am saying is that, like most PADI specialties, you'll get by just fine without it. A few boat trips, where you tell the crew that this is your first time on a dive boat, and you'll get more free advice and help than you ever will in a class.

That is it, right there, thank you. It IS ok to ask for help and advice - or as I put it "training or mentoring, whether formal or informal"

In my opinion; it's not needed, and there isn't a skill or experience gap that this 'certification' bridges. And to address the question from the OP; no, in my opinion, it is not worth it.

The CERT is not needed, I don't think anyone has said otherwise. Help / advice / training / mentoring - call it what you will - MAY be needed. Nobody contemplating their first boat dive should feel looked down upon if their comfort level dictates they ask for help.

 

[lowviz]

...//... Nobody contemplating their first boat dive should feel looked down upon if their comfort level dictates they ask for help.

Perfect.

Nicely stated without posturing.

 

[gcarter]

A newbie's perspective here. Is any specialty worth it? It depends on your background and objectives. As to the boat specialty, I don't think I would benefit much from it. I have done a a big of surfing, and anything I have encountered yet with getting on and off a dive boat gas been less challenging than getting on and off a boat with a surf board. And the rest seems just common sense and curtesy. On the other hand, there are things that others might consider trivial, but that I would want to get training in. Ice diving in the Great Lakes is certainly among them. Some might argue that it's just bardic line and reel handling but it still scares me because it's out of my comfort zone. Similarly, I can see that a boat in a considerable swell is out of the comfort zone of someone who isn't used to rougher ocean conditions. So I'm glad that the training opportunities are offered, but I'm not sure that everything needs it's own certification. Next we'll have to get the fish ID card before we can admire the aquatic life.

And there is the rub. There is nothing wrong with asking for or paying for training in anything, if that training is of value to the student. Nothing.

In the PADI world the conclusion happens comes with a C-card. It is the word certification that seems to get peoples knickers in a twist. I don't think people would really care if underwater photography or boat diving came with Certificates of Completion. But I personally don't see what the big deal is.

I have done professional development courses that concluded with diplomas declaring me Certified In Blah Blah Blah. The people paying for me to take those courses were under no illusions as to what "Certified" meant. They were learning opportunities, nothing more.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Ok my input.

Going back to the original OP question. I'm an advocate of getting some dives under your belt before join going to AOW. I did my OW on holiday and kept diving for the rest of the holiday ending up with a total of 18 dives. I jumped straight in to my AoW as soon as I could - and with hind site I wasn't ready my buoyancy and trim weren't good enough, so I didn't get the real benefit of the tasters - given that I was trying to concentrate on the basics. Had I got another 10 dives under my belt I'd have been much better. However that was me and others may master the basic's sooner.

Regarding Boat diving - what a can of worms this was/is!!!

Again, when I didm my OW and subsequent dives - all were done off a dive boat built for 30 - so proper dive deck etc etc. At the end of my vacation while getting my shiny new log booked steamed from the dive centre I asked if they'd be stamping the Boat speciality. The answer was no, and that I should take that course as I'd learn more. Really? Like what?

It should be remembered that the speciality courses are an "overview" (please bear with me on this). Take the boat. it may teach you nautical terms (port, Stbd, bow, stern) etc it may cover entries shuck as back ward roll and giant stride and then getting back on a boat with a ladder or not. But just an overview. IMHO you don't ned to pay for this as it would deb covered by a brief for each newcomer on a boat.

At each different dive destination, with each different boat there will be locally specific factors / procedures. I'm not going to debate you may keep your fins on in New Jersey and climb a ladder. This will differ from say diving a RHIB in the UK where there is no ladder and you use your fins to propel yourself onboard, or to Diving a boat with a fin step - maybe one with a dive elevator or one with a ladder where you can't use fins.

Over in PNW or New Jersey say, you wouldn't need to ensure you get plastered with SPF 50 - you do here in the gulf where winter temps are 70F and summer are 115F +, We don't use radios and can't rely on the flakey coastguard so must carry Satellite phones. Similarly in the US there will probably be regulations that we don't have and so it goes on. All these are Locally specific and wouldn't be covered in a speciality course they would be covered in a local brief. However the basics remain the same are are indeed just common sense (once the've been explained) but you shouldn't need a card to get on a boat.

Imagine if before you could go on a cruise ship you needed a course? Extreme I know but you get my point?

in choosing the Adventure dive tasters for AoW there are two schools of thought. 1 is to choose what would be relative to the types of dive environments you normally dive, the other is to choose ones that you wouldn't normally experience? And only the individual can choose what is right for them.

I will however end this in a contentious way to provoke discussion - I would prefer if the entry for AoW was a minimum of 15-20hrs dive time post OW (not a qty of logged dives) and a requirement to hold horizontal trim and buoyancy with a vertical deviation in the water column of not greater than say +/- 0.6 m (2') while carrying out a mask clear...