Is Padi advanced worth taking ?

[-hh]

mogwai once bubbled...
Am working throughaow at the moment. Seems to me it is all about experience, dive, dive and dive some more. Am also fortuntate that my buddy is alos my instructor and am constantly learning. Being in the water as much as poss seems to be the key, aow helps you further along the path.

The problem with AOW is twofold.

The first problem is timing: you won't get as much out of it if you take it "too early" or "too late".

Personally, I don't think it should be appropriate to take straight out of BOW training - - you need to let people get some basic experience and confidence under their belt before you start pushing limits. Similarly, if you've been diving for years, you've probably already learned 99% of what an AOW would have covered for free from a Mentoring Buddy, so the AOW would be an expensive duplication ... a poor consumer value.


The second problem is how the AOW credential is being used today. A decade ago, everyone understood that it was experience that mattered and didn't worry about what kind of C-Card you had for a "deep" dive on a wreck or whatever. Today, though, we have diveshops with policies that an AOW card and only an AOW Card is required for certain dives. This means that older, experienced divers who skipped AOW but are nevertheless qualified get screwed simply because they're "undocumented".

For these divers, getting an AOW card is literally nothing more than getting your ticket punched so that stuipidly narrow-minded dive operators don't stop you from doing a dive that you're qualified for, but lack the formality of a "sheepskin" (Card).


I picked up the knowledge and skills on my own, although more recently, I did finally pick up a formal AOW Card because of the second factor: to serve purely as a proactive defensive measure from arbitrary diveshop rules stopping me from doing a dive that I know that I'm qualified to do.

FWIW, I will say that showing an arrogant DM a BOW that was issued before he was born is often effective, but my AOW was worth what I paid for it, mostly because I paid virtually nothing. I've also done the same for Nitrox, although that one did cost me quite a bit more...$50.

The pitfall with all of this is that an AOW card really doen't mean all that much: for the most part, it means that you had to face a certain challenge once in your diving life, with an instructor near at hand. Its not anywhere near facing the same challenge on your own (akin to going up on your first 'Solo' aircraft flight). IMO, the dive operations who insist on using the AOW as a "gate" are operations that even though they no longer can impact me, are nevertheless ones that I would prefer to avoid, because it is evidence of a lack of intelligence in how to manage risk.



-hh

 

[5615mike]

seanrollins once bubbled...


MikeFerrara,

I've noticed a disatisfaction with PADI on your part in many of your posts since I started hanging around the board. First of all, I would like to remind you that you are a PADI Instructor! PADI is what us instructors make it be. If you have a problem with the way a course is run, or a problem with standards or procedures, it is your responsability to report it to PADI.

Also, I'd like to remind you that as a PADI Instructor, you are not permitted to bash the way that PADI runs their courses, or other PADI Instructors. It is your responsability to promote PADI courses, and back them up since you teach them!

I find it hard to believe that PADI is certifying instructors who have only one dive past 60 feet. The reason I find it hard to believe is because my Instructors Exam was pretty intense, and I couldn'd see anyone who is not a competant safe diver passing through it. With that said, I don't know how IE's are elsewhere. Also, how are you proposing that a PADI student can take Rescue without taking the PADI Advanced class, or an advanced class from another agency? I have seen no standards that allow such things.

On the other side, I agree that the PADI Advanced class could use more depth material wise (see my threads about it). But, the PADI "Advanced" class is designed keeping in mind that a huge portion of it's students are fresh out of Open Water. The point of the course is to offer certified divers more valuable time with an instructor to better their diving skills, not academic skills.

Anyways, don't take this personally, it was just an observation. I think it's highly irresponsible of you to be bashing the worlds largest diving agency in the "Basic Scuba Discussions" part of ScubaBoard. Let's move this to the Instructors Only section if you would like to talk further about it.

Take care,

What ARE YOU.......a Padi commerical? LOL
Give it break. Sounds like Mike is just willing to tell it like is and not take things and associations at face value. Instructors are NOT all created equal no matter what the credentials of the governing body. Get over it.

 

[ScubaJewel]

yes definitely

Julie

 

[Charlie99]

-hh once bubbled...
<snipped most of a very well thought out post>

. This means that older, experienced divers who skipped AOW but are nevertheless qualified get screwed simply because they're "undocumented".

For these divers, getting an AOW card is literally nothing more than getting your ticket punched so that stuipidly narrow-minded dive operators don't stop you from doing a dive that you're qualified for, but lack the formality of a "sheepskin" (Card).

I agree on the rest of your post, particularly about the problem of timing AOW so that it has the greatest value.

A possible alternative for experienced divers is to jump directly to the Rescue courses. The prerequisites are "AOW or equivalent" -- you just have to find an instructor that is willing to think a bit, and perhaps even do a bit of diving with you to satisfy him that you meet the equivalency requirement.

Operators in the Florida Keys that blindly seek to use an AOW card as a liability shield so far have been satsified by seeing my Rescue card rather than the AOW.

 

[DORSETBOY]

I'm gonna put myself in the firing line but it's true that as a PADI instructor you do have the reponsibility to promote PADI positively and there's nothing worng with that. Surely if as a PADI Instructor you have any prob's or gripes with the PADI system you have a responsibility to make PADI aware so that they can change their procedures. If people have a problem with something but dont say anything about it then nothing will change.

 

[MikeFerrara]

As a PADI instructor you are a PADI customer. They provide you and your students a service not the other way around.

It is their responsibility to provide a professional environment in regard to standards and enforcement in which you can work in the best interest of your students. When the agency encourages or turn a blind eye toward shops or instructors cutting corners on standards or the intent of those standards for the purpose of a low price then they are doing just the oposite.

As a PADI instructor or an instructor of any other agency your first responsibility is to your students not to the agency or your fellow instructors.

 

[clockradio]

diving is a learning process from the start. if you can get all the skills you need by diving w/a buddy, great. but consider the benefits of diving with an instructor, that will get you on the right track for advance diving skills. especially if you might want to be an instructor yourself. i guess thats a yes.:teach:

 

[DORSETBOY]

Doesnt matter what sport you participate in, once you progress past the level of amateur into the realms of professionalism you cease to be a customer of the agency for which you instruct. Just my opinion and obviously we are going to differ on this.

Either way, it doesnt change the point that instructors of any agency teaching any sport have a responsiblity toward their students... this means WE as instructors have a responsibility to tell our agency (PADI in this instance) if we disagree with anything they do.

 

[MikeFerrara]

DORSETBOY once bubbled...
Doesnt matter what sport you participate in, once you progress past the level of amateur into the realms of professionalism you cease to be a customer of the agency for which you instruct. Just my opinion and obviously we are going to differ on this.

I pay them money every year for membership. I buy student materials and I even buy instructor manuals. Since the flow of money goes only one way (from me to them) I would say I'm a customer.

Either way, it doesnt change the point that instructors of any agency teaching any sport have a responsiblity toward their students... this means WE as instructors have a responsibility to tell our agency (PADI in this instance) if we disagree with anything they do.

PADI has heard it all.