Lionfish problem SOLVED

[Mike]

So imagine the possibilities if people living in poverty in a third world country were told they would be paid for killing the critters and it was not just left to the transient divemastersor instructors who by the marine parks own post should be PADI

You will have to be more clear on what you're saying.

Are you talking again about locals catching lionfish for a local lionfish market? If that's what you're saying, I've already explained what that would accomplish and what it wouldn't, already explained if it would be helpful or not.

If you're talking about putting a bounty on lionfish and paying locals for killing them, I guarantee your marine park will be very reluctant about that, and I don't think Roatan's government is capable of managing a program like that, nor would they consider it due to the costs.

The money would be far better spent on educating those who make a living on the dive sites, (dive masters) to manage those dive sites by eradicating the lionfish, and considering allowing recreational divers to kill lionfish inside the marine park. That's a simpler program, all it takes is some public service campaigns, and an astronomically cheaper program to fund and it's already got proven examples of success elsewhere to point to and model off of.

 

[laurenceh]

yep, most lobster tails from moskita are sold to red lobster and sams club/costco.

 

[Doc]

..... I am sure the marine park would have everything under control

Once again, you forgot the sarcasm emoticon. You're killin' me here. T.F.M.

 

[rob@diveinutila.com]

I have been trying to find some research available to read online. Having little success, but found a couple of things. It has all made me think that there is far less published formal research on this problem than most of us think.

I couldn't find anything on initial recruitment of lion fish and dispersal of eggs and larval stage and the settling - except maybe a paid for report which I didn't pay for or read. I imagine though it wouldn't be too different from any other common reef fish - although the movement through the life cycle of individuals will, fairly obviously, affect dispersal of the species as well.

We know they have a high reproductive rate (fecundity) and a 26 day pelagic larval stage (from what I know that can be anything from 14 days to 180 days (I think grouper have a long larval stage).

The high fecundity coupled with a short larval stage as well as few/no natural predators is what lead to the ever so rapid dispersal.

I could find one article on site fidelity and movement patterns during their life history which suggests that they don't move very far at all.
http://absci.fiu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Jud-and-Layman-2012-JEMBE.pdf

The study found that individuals more often than not did not move location (even after capture and release) and could be found in exactly the same spot as before (+/- 0.5m). A few moved, but the greatest distance recorded for movement was still under 100m.

This study shows some hope and reflects our experiences in this dive center, around Utila.

While we really have little hope of controlling this invasive species across the Caribbean as a whole the study does suggest that we may have success in controlling their numbers in areas that we commonly dive in as an adult lion fish does not change territories. Once eliminated from an area it seems that new juveniles need to come along to take the vacant place. Probably the adults will eat any juvenile coming into their territory?? They eat all the other juveniles, so why not their own?

Around Utila little dived areas have plenty of lion fish, whereas frequently dived areas have few to (maybe even) none. Most dive centers have active lion fish removal. None of this is being managed by anyone and needs regular encouragement and events organized to keep sustaining this. But so far (around this small island, where we get to dive most of the island and remove on a regular basis) so good.

Where do we find them in numbers - north side shallows (less than scuba depth) and remoter sea mounds and reef banks. Many can be found in shallow water and of course it's perfect juvenile hunting territory. They can be found in numbers on more remote reef banks where people rarely dive. But compare to a very commonly dived site such as Black Coral Wall and I think it would be fair to say they are sighted in-frequently, but even there get more depth and you'll find more (less people diving, so less people removing them - or so I suppose).

I believe the biggest impact is made from local working divers (DMs and Instructors) because they dive here the most and dive widest variety of sites. I believe that regular lion fish derby's are very effective, especially in light of the study on life cycle movement. We have had two in the previous year and they have been very effective here - the island is small enough that once the dive centers get going almost the whole island is swept. Two a year on an island the size of Utila seems to have an effect. An island the size of Roatan would need more and for them to be in different areas around the island at different times.

I am not a fan of untrained lion fish removal - I worry about the impact on the reef of inexperienced spear fishers and injury (from spear and lion fish). However, give people a little training and practice with spear, equip them with the protective gloves, and first aid training, and I would probably come around on that.

What effect does removal by recreational scuba divers have? Well many of the same species that are in trouble on the reef (snapper, grouper) seem to like to inhabit the same areas of reef that grouper and snapper like to inhabit. (http://www.aquaticinvasions.net/2011/AI_2011_6_3_Biggs_Olden.pdf). They like patch reefs with plenty of hard corals creating overhangs and the like. In other words the lion fish settlings tend to choose the same areas as grouper and snapper settlings. Probably meaning that an adult lion fish is going to get a nice supply of juvenile grouper and snapper to feed on.

So back to my question... well I conjecture that by almost eliminating lion fish from one particular spot we can create a haven for grouper and snapper settlings. Although with species already under threat from over fishing I wonder if even trying to create safe havens for juveniles will be enough.

It seems that we will not be able to remove the problem but that we do have a chance of protecting native species in specific areas from the lion fish appetite.

Doubt should not stop us from though.

 

[RTBDiver]

You will have to be more clear on what you're saying.

.

I think I was quite clear, If locals who have been able to bring Island deer, Conch, lobster, turtles and so many other creatures into the list of critters in trouble on the islands than they likely could do the same for lionfish. Many tourists visit on a cruise and are proud they were able to try such an exotic meal as iguana without knowing or caring that it is illegal on Roatan. I said they get paid for killing them just as spearfisherman worlwide get paid for hunting fish for the local mongers. Only an idiot would think the government of third world Honduras would pay to simply kill them, And I do not think your tht much of an idiot to suggest so or suggest that was my take on the subject, HELLO... Spade fish were junk fish in Florida years gone by then there was a small market, I know guys that made tens of thousands of dollars on them at less than a dollar a pound, Sure they got paid lot lessper pound but they were abundant. Many here seem to forget that 10-20 dollars aint a bad day of fishing for a local islander , Heck, Those Iguana at the pet srores in the US are sold at 50 lemps per foot on the Island. Why is the marine park not pushing lionfish s a good eating fish? Why are not some of these places serving illegal iguana, conch and lobster not pushing lionfish as the local exotic? We know the marine park can have an influence, heck, all alone they made people think deet hurt the reef just so they could sell a local made product with a better profit margin with no testing at all, with tht effort they could sell ice to eskimo's

 

[KellyAsh]

I think another way to help manage the issue is to look at other highly adaptable invasive species with high reproduction rates from around the world, ie wild hogs specifically, but also asian carp, zebra mussels, kudzu, hydrilla, and the rest, as well as the methods used to control them, both successful and unsuccessful. Since there have been many, many other invasive species that have been dealt with over the years, there can't help but be valuable lessons in most every other case that has existed which could be applied to the lionfish problem.

From my own experience, it's worked well with wild hogs, to do a "roundup" on property, let it settle for a week or so while keeping "kill zones" baited and run another "roundup" after that week. Each time we did this, it took longer and longer for new hogs to come back in. Another thing we did was focus on the healthiest breeders in the bunch. Let the little ones run off while you drill the mature mothers that have 3 times the fundicity of their younger counterparts. These 2 things, along with traps, help make a real difference from property to property in Texas and Louisiana. Taking this approach to a larger scale, like statewide is only inhibited by the lack of organization, cooperation, general apathy, and severe selfishness and/or greed.

Now, knowing full well that lionfish and hogs are completely different animals, I take into account the most poignant fact to me, which is that with fish, the largest of the females of most species' produce FAR more eggs than females only a little smaller than themselves so I tend to target the largest lionfish first, if forced to choose. It might also be possible that doing back to back derbies may have a profound impact in more affected areas as well.

In my own opinion, mother nature has proven to me that extermination on the mesoamerican reef is impossible, management is the only way we can keep the reef from being completely overrun. We should, by all means, shoot for the stars though. Let's TRY and wipe them from the face of the reef. The more we kill the less we'll see is a proven strategy so far.

I also believe a multipronged approach would yield the best results for our energy. I think everyone's ideas have merit and any idea that doesn't damage the reef beyond what the lionfish population would do is a worthwhile idea. Mitigating/eliminating their impact is the goal here. How we reach that end should be open to all comers. Just my .02 here.

 

[Mike]

Now, knowing full well that lionfish and hogs are completely different animals, I take into account the most poignant fact to me, which is that with fish, the largest of the females of most species' produce FAR more eggs than females only a little smaller than themselves so I tend to target the largest lionfish first, if forced to choose. It might also be possible that doing back to back derbies may have a profound impact in more affected areas as well.

The problem is always the same. Lionfish are breeding outside recreational dive limits all the time, so there is basically an infinite supply of reinforcements outside the controllable areas. Either juveniles will migrate back into the controlled areas or eggs will float into the controlled areas. Either way you've got a never ending resupply of juvenile lionfish always coming back into your controlled areas. If you whack the adults the juveniles eat the crap out of the reef fish on their way to becoming adults. Only whacking them all, indiscriminate of size, allows you to protect the reef fish in a controllable area. This is the main problem with the hitching a solution to lionfish as a table food. Derbies are great at culling out lionfish, but doing them 2 times a year means for basically 50 other weeks a year they are carrying on unmolested and the reefs show the results.

 

[KellyAsh]

Yep. This is why I made these statements, "In my own opinion, mother nature has proven to me that extermination on the mesoamerican reef is impossible, management is the only way we can keep the reef from being completely overrun." and "...so I tend to target the largest lionfish first, if forced to choose."

Apparently, I already understood the points you've repeated so I'm not totally sure what your point was.

 

[Mike]

Why is there a point? We aren't creating the next great novel here, simply a forum on the internet.

 

[KellyAsh]

You could've at least made your nonsensical post entertaining.