Love this side mount alternative

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For that type of boat, clip the tanks off to a line over the side and clip them off in the water... Doesn't work so well in offshore conditions, but in calm waters...

Pontoon boats are great, definately the preffered dive platform in placid waters for cave diving in areas that allow their size. Edd Sorenson rents three of them out on the Mill Pond.

That would have been definately easier, but if I'm out on the ocean with waves I wanted to see what it would be like getting off with all my tanks. It was a lot of work getting the steel tanks attached by myself, but I ended up needing help clipping off the deco bottle.
 
Nothing personal... but you took a SM Instructor course, to learn what Jeff Loflin teaches new SM students, and how to teach those same skills; without any practical experience under your belt?
No, I didn't say that. In fact, I had to reread what I wrote earlier - I was afraid I had mistated. I was already diving SM based on earlier interactions with Jeff, before taking the course with him. More to the point, I considered my BM doubles experience to be much more relevant (and substantial). Without that, I certainly wouldn't have pursued the instructor course.
I wouldn't take a Cavern class, from a brand new Cave Diver.
You might not. I might not, either (and didn't). But, more than a few people do (from new cave divers who get certified as Cavern Instructors), safely and successfully. But, I am not sure if that is the best analogy.
I would just encourage you to dive sidemount for considerably longer, before teaching it to others.
And, I fully appreciate where you are coming from, and the positive spirit of the comment. But, reasonable people can disgaree. So, let's do. And, this is an internet bulletin board. There is nothing personal about any of it. First of all, sidemount is a gear configuration. SM is neither rocket science nor brain surgery. Drysuit diving actually may be a more difficult learning experience than sidemount. Unlike deep, certainly cave, or CCR where you are diving in a different environment, or with a very different set of gear, SM per se is not defined by a unique environment, notwithstanding its origins in cave exploration. In addition, anyone who has a body of experience with BM doubles has been exposed to much of the core of SM - gas management, redundant buoyancy, trim considerations, emergency procedures, etc. It is more a matter of where you wear your tanks, and the fact that you have independent gas supplies which must be managed during a dive, rather than a single supply from two tanks connected with a manifold. For that matter, anyone who has strapped on two deco bottles has actually been exposed to sidemount. Anyone who routinely dives a larger (30 – 40 cf) slung pony bottle and uses it underwater has been exposed to SM. I am not trying to belittle SM at all, rather just acknowledging the reality of what it is. The instructional core is a) the determination of which of the elements of the configuration and diving style are critical to successful and safe diving, b) defining learning objectives on the basis of that determination, and c) organizing instruction in such a way as to meet those objectives. I would love to say that there is an intrinsic core of unique science, that clearly sets SM apart. But, that would be exaggeration.

Second, what we wanted to know was how Jeff presented the core body of knowledge. Yes, we also wanted to know what he considered the body of knowledge to be, so we could compare it to what I perceived. (And, yes, I wanted some answers to specific gear questions – things as trivial as optimal alignment of the bolt snaps on the tanks, for example, or why he uses bungee cord for the deco bottle attachments, and static line for the mains.) We weren't taking the course to learn sidemount. The practical experience that I considered most relevant was not so much the 10 SM dives I had done before doing the course, but the substantially greater number of BM doubles dives I had done before that. I certainly don't consider myself an 'expert' diver, in SM, or even. There is always something new to learn. But, I worry about the instructor who does.

‘Practical experience’ is an interesting concept. For many years, I was a CPR Instructor-Trainer. And, I was effective. Notably, the primary qualification to become an IT was to complete an IT development course. And, like most CPR Instructors, and Instructor-Trainers, I had (and have) never performed CPR on an actual patient, although I have had people that I trained do so. The argument could be made that I didn’t have the ‘practical experience’ to be an IT. Using that criteria, very few CPR ITs are qualified. But, they are doing the training of Instructors, who are doing the training of ....

Nitrox is example of another aspect of what constitutes necessary ‘practical experience’. When I took the course 10 years ago it was two evenings of academics, and two dives. Now, we teach it in a single 4 hour academic session, and that is more than enough because we realize that the core body of knowledge is fairly straightforward. And, I don't think having 150 nitrox dives necessarily makes me a better instructor than a shop colleague who has 25 (although I do think having experience with a variety of mixes in deeper, deompression diving does help me as an instructor).

I am genuinely curious - What do you consider ‘appropriate sidemount training’? Again, I am interested in the opinions of others. I have my own views, based primarily on my BM experience. I obviously know what is in the Distinctive Specialty. What do you think should be in the training?

Third, as for watering down the market, I am not altogether sure what the market is, that could be diluted. I don’t see a lot of people clamoring for recreational sidemount training. In our area, among the three primary shops, ours does much of the technical dive training, and that has been all in BM to date. And, there is a chasm between that level of training, and the recreational divers who want to gain more experience, but aren't ready to pursue full technical training. There hasn’t been particular interest in SM in our scuba club until the two of us that worked with Jeff in January started 'talking it up'. If anything, we are expanding the market, certainly the ultimate market for technical training, by helping recreational divers consider a feasible, practical, and orderly transition to double tank diving. Most of the SM divers in the area are DIYers, without formal training in SM. After we did a club presentation last month, I had another instructor in the shop, who I have known for a long time, inside scuba and out, tell me he had been sidemounting for a couple of years, on a DIY basis. I had no idea, nor was he aware of what I had been doing. There really isn’t a market there to dilute. Now, do I consider Jeff, for example, to be a more knowledgeable SM instructor than I? Absolutely. Am I siphoning off divers who would otherwise drive 12 hours to do a course with him. Hardly. Am I making it more difficult for Jeff to provide SM training to others? Not at all.

Fourth, and not justifying whether 37 dives is enough ‘practical experience’, we have people teaching scuba who self-certify as an Instructor in a particular specialty solely on the basis of having done 20 dives in that specialty – no specific training as an instructor in the specialty. And, some seem to do a good job (and some probably do a piss poor job). But, that is the nature of instruction. In scuba, as in virtually every other discipline, there is a strong element of ‘see one, do one, teach one’. That is reality. And, I almost hate to say it, but it works. A lot of private pilots receive their flight instruction from young, relatively inexperienced, instructors who have just finshed their CFI (including more than a few 'zero to hero' types). I lot of undergraduate students receive instruction from young, relatively inexperienced (and unskilled, as teachers) graduate students. A lot first year medical residents receive a lot of practical training from a lot of second year residents.

As a general principle, a good teacher - of anything - gets better over time. With added experience – both as a doer and a teacher - they learn new ways of doing things, improve techniques, acquire ‘tricks of the trade’, etc. So, I wouldn’t argue that after 50 SM dives I will probably be better than I am after 37, and after 100 I will probably be better than I will be after 50. But, frankly, the steepest part of the learning curve was the first 5. And, yes, there is always the element of, ‘You don’t know what you don’t know.’ Now, where I would possibly agree: I don’t think someone could effectively consider teaching SM without a technical / doubles diving background. For me, that is the practical experience that allows me to share sidemount with others.
 
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It also occurs to me that formal training in editing messages on SB would be helpful. Practical experience doesn't seem to be helping as much as I would like
 
...anyone who has a body of experience with BM doubles has been exposed to much of the core of SM - gas management, redundant buoyancy, trim considerations, emergency procedures, etc. It is more a matter of where you wear your tanks, and the fact that you have independent gas supplies which must be managed during a dive, rather than a single supply from two tanks connected with a manifold. For that matter, anyone who has strapped on two deco bottles has actually been exposed to sidemount. Anyone who routinely dives a larger (30 – 40 cf) slung pony bottle and uses it underwater has been exposed to SM. I am not trying to belittle SM at all, rather just acknowledging the reality of what it is. The instructional core is a) the determination of which of the elements of the configuration and diving style are critical to successful and safe diving, b) defining learning objectives on the basis of that determination, and c) organizing instruction in such a way as to meet those objectives. I would love to say that there is an intrinsic core of unique science, that clearly sets SM apart. But, that would be exaggeration.

Sidemount diving is a lot more than just that. I teach OW sidemount diving pretty regularly, 4 courses so far this year. What I bring to my class is the years and 100s of dives of experience. I have tried almost every tweak that someone can do to a sidemount rig, sometimes several times and have personally experienced the advantages and disadvantages of each one. I've had my long hose on my right cylinder and on my left cylinder. I've pointed my SPG in every direction possible. I've tried different bungees. I bring all of this to my students and let them decide on which one is best for them. And gas management in sidemount is much different than gas management in backmount...so are emergency procedures.

things as trivial as optimal alignment of the bolt snaps on the tanks, for example,

There is no optimal alignment. It's an individual thing. A good sidemount instructor will have a starting point for students and know how to change it to correct the trim.

The practical experience that I considered most relevant was not so much the 10 SM dives I had done before doing the course, but the substantially greater number of BM doubles dives I had done before that. I certainly don't consider myself an 'expert' diver, in SM, or even. There is always something new to learn. But, I worry about the instructor who does.

I'm still not getting how your experience in backmount has contributed to your knowledge of sidemount, unless you were diving independent backmounted doubles. Yes, there is always something new to learn. I never stop learning. In fact, I learned something from one of my students this week. If you think you're ready to present a good sidemount course at this point, maybe you should start worrying.

‘Practical experience’ is an interesting concept. For many years, I was a CPR Instructor-Trainer. And, I was effective. Notably, the primary qualification to become an IT was to complete an IT development course. And, like most CPR Instructors, and Instructor-Trainers, I had (and have) never performed CPR on an actual patient, although I have had people that I trained do so. The argument could be made that I didn’t have the ‘practical experience’ to be an IT. Using that criteria, very few CPR ITs are qualified. But, they are doing the training of Instructors, who are doing the training of ....

Apples and oranges. With CPR, the person is likely already dead. CPR alone is not going to save someone's life. It's the advanced cardiac life support that does that. You can't make someone deader. And I have done CPR on real 'dead' people, dozens of times, maybe hundreds (21 years experience as an ER/ICU nurse and medic).

I am genuinely curious - What do you consider ‘appropriate sidemount training’? Again, I am interested in the opinions of others. I have my own views, based primarily on my BM experience. I obviously know what is in the Distinctive Specialty. What do you think should be in the training?

See my comments above. Oh, and the course I teach isn't a Distinctive Specialty. It's not even a PADI course. I teach my course through IANTD.

Fourth, and not justifying whether 37 dives is enough ‘practical experience’, we have people teaching scuba who self-certify as an Instructor in a particular specialty solely on the basis of having done 20 dives in that specialty – no specific training as an instructor in the specialty. And, some seem to do a good job (and some probably do a piss poor job). But, that is the nature of instruction. In scuba, as in virtually every other discipline, there is a strong element of ‘see one, do one, teach one’. That is reality. And, I almost hate to say it, but it works. A lot of private pilots receive their flight instruction from young, relatively inexperienced, instructors who have just finshed their CFI (including more than a few 'zero to hero' types). I lot of undergraduate students receive instruction from young, relatively inexperienced (and unskilled, as teachers) graduate students. A lot first year medical residents receive a lot of practical training from a lot of second year residents.

The current system works well enough with general specialties. There's not a whole lot to teaching UW Navigation or Boat Diving, especially if you just follow the standards. However, I have had students come to me post cavern course from instructors that have had minimal prerequisites to become a cavern instructor. And it's very obvious the student didn't get very good training. And I won't take PADI cavern as a prerequisite without an extra evaluation day to review skills unless I know the instructor that taught the PADI cavern course. I've researched some of those instructors as a result of student inquiries and most of them are only at the Intro Cave level with 20 post training dives and haven't been in a cave since. The standards have since changed but those instructors got to keep their cavern instructor cards.

As a general principle, a good teacher - of anything - gets better over time. With added experience – both as a doer and a teacher - they learn new ways of doing things, improve techniques, acquire ‘tricks of the trade’, etc. So, I wouldn’t argue that after 50 SM dives I will probably be better than I am after 37, and after 100 I will probably be better than I will be after 50. But, frankly, the steepest part of the learning curve was the first 5. And, yes, there is always the element of, ‘You don’t know what you don’t know.’ Now, where I would possibly agree: I don’t think someone could effectively consider teaching SM without a technical / doubles diving background. For me, that is the practical experience that allows me to share sidemount with others.

You don't know what you don't know. Come back and revisit this post after another 150 sidemount dives.
 
"Quote"As a general principle, a good teacher - of anything - gets better over time. With added experience – both as a doer and a teacher - they learn new ways of doing things, improve techniques, acquire ‘tricks of the trade’, etc. So, I wouldn’t argue that after 50 SM dives I will probably be better than I am after 37, and after 100 I will probably be better than I will be after 50. But, frankly, the steepest part of the learning curve was the first 5. And, yes, there is always the element of, ‘You don’t know what you don’t know.’ Now, where I would possibly agree: I don’t think someone could effectively consider teaching SM without a technical / doubles diving background. For me, that is the practical experience that allows me to share sidemount with others. "Quote"

You are teaching sidemount after 37 dives in sidemount yourself? Your first five were the ones that proved your worthiness? Really? You must have the perfect setup to be experienced enough to teach after just a few dives. What exactly are you teaching? Sidemount diving is much more than slinging two bottles on your side and 37 dives is not nearly enough to call yourself "experienced". I am not trying to flame you, but it is what it is.

Like Rob, I moved things here and then I moved things there. SPG's, bungies, reels, pouches, arrows, back up lights, my primary light, my inflator............I could go on. I admit, my very first dive was wonderful and my trim was better than backmount as it it an easy system to dive. It is not, however, an easy system to master. Mat can tell you how many times I changed this and that til I found my sweet spot...........for the most part. I have dived, big holes, small holes, open water, high flow, low flow, and have found the task loading is higher and way different than b/m doubles.

Technically we all say we never stop learning, and to a point that is true.............but there comes a time that we "peak" and the learning is now and then instead of all of the time. It finally comes to slight changes instead of large changes. We hit our sweet spot where we are just "doing it" and not thinking about it. Until that point no one has any business "teaching" anything. I wonder how many instructors ask themselves, "why am I really teaching this?" I worry that for many it is a new way to make money on, what could possibly be, a fad instead of striving for excellence for themselves first and their students as well. Rob is right, you don't know what you don't know. Do yourself, and your students, a favor.......... master this skill before you teach this skill to others. Both will be better for it. :coffee:
 
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More to the point, I considered my BM doubles experience to be much more relevant (and substantial). Without that, I certainly wouldn't have pursued the instructor course.

Please explain how your BM experience is more relevant to sidemount diving than sidemount experience? Your BM experience is certainly more substantial, since you have substantially less, admittedly, experience in SM.

You might not. I might not, either (and didn't). But, more than a few people do (from new cave divers who get certified as Cavern Instructors), safely and successfully. But, I am not sure if that is the best analogy.

I think its a fair analogy. Its fairly apparent that there are lots of new cavern/cave divers that haven't gotten the appropriate training lately, its being noticed at the typical training sites, talked about on the internet, and its showing on the caves themselves.

First of all, sidemount is a gear configuration. SM is neither rocket science nor brain surgery. Drysuit diving actually may be a more difficult learning experience than sidemount. Unlike deep, certainly cave, or CCR where you are diving in a different environment, or with a very different set of gear, SM per se is not defined by a unique environment, notwithstanding its origins in cave exploration.

We can agree on this, for the most part. While its not rocket surgery or brain science, it still takes a considerable amount of tweaking to get everything where it needs to be. There's more to sidemount than just strapping two tanks to your side, you might be doing it, but you're not doing it right. Experience will teach you the whats and whys that can make a unit work correctly or not. You might be able to set up your own kit, but what works for you, isn't going to work for everyone elses body types and configurations. A competant instructor will know where all these little tweaks here and there will affect the overall setup, or what pros/cons are involved with doing it one way or the other, or how this setup is better for when you'll be carrying your weight on land, why this setup is better for if you're expecting to be able to remove a tank, etc. Dive_Aholic and spd135 have both already touched on this quite a bit though...

In addition, anyone who has a body of experience with BM doubles has been exposed to much of the core of SM - gas management, redundant buoyancy, trim considerations, emergency procedures, etc.

They may be aware they all exist, but alot of it will change, with the configuration.

It is more a matter of where you wear your tanks, and the fact that you have independent gas supplies which must be managed during a dive, rather than a single supply from two tanks connected with a manifold. For that matter, anyone who has strapped on two deco bottles has actually been exposed to sidemount. Anyone who routinely dives a larger (30 – 40 cf) slung pony bottle and uses it underwater has been exposed to SM. I am not trying to belittle SM at all, rather just acknowledging the reality of what it is.

We'd all be doing it wrong if thats all there was too it. Thats your inexperience showing through IMO.

The instructional core is a) the determination of which of the elements of the configuration and diving style are critical to successful and safe diving, b) defining learning objectives on the basis of that determination, and c) organizing instruction in such a way as to meet those objectives. I would love to say that there is an intrinsic core of unique science, that clearly sets SM apart. But, that would be exaggeration.

Even if thats all there is to it, do you think with 37 sidemount dives and a substantial amount more backmount experience, you can accomplish all that?

The practical experience that I considered most relevant was not so much the 10 SM dives I had done before doing the course, but the substantially greater number of BM doubles dives I had done before that. I certainly don't consider myself an 'expert' diver, in SM, or even.

I wonder if you're thoughts will change at 100 SM dives?

There is always something new to learn. But, I worry about the instructor who does.

True that. The more experienced instructors have already gone through ALOT of the learning process though, and thats what they can pass on to their students. They'll be able to recognize whats causing whatever issues, since they've been there and done that. That doesn't mean they're finished learning, it just frees them up to be innovative and continue on with finer points of trial and error. The common hiccups will be out of the way.

‘Practical experience’ is an interesting concept. For many years, I was a CPR Instructor-Trainer. And, I was effective. Notably, the primary qualification to become an IT was to complete an IT development course. And, like most CPR Instructors, and Instructor-Trainers, I had (and have) never performed CPR on an actual patient, although I have had people that I trained do so. The argument could be made that I didn’t have the ‘practical experience’ to be an IT. Using that criteria, very few CPR ITs are qualified. But, they are doing the training of Instructors, who are doing the training of ....

So you're saying a dive instructor can take a SM instructor course, then teach SM, without ever having done any real SM dives???

Thats an interesting concept...


...and I disagree completely. The quality of THAT instruction will be worth VERY little, IMO.



This ain't CPR, this ain't flight school, this aint driving, this aint the courts of law, or any other analogies that often get tied to diving practices...

Nitrox is example of another aspect of what constitutes necessary ‘practical experience’. When I took the course 10 years ago it was two evenings of academics, and two dives. Now, we teach it in a single 4 hour academic session, and that is more than enough because we realize that the core body of knowledge is fairly straightforward. And, I don't think having 150 nitrox dives necessarily makes me a better instructor than a shop colleague who has 25 (although I do think having experience with a variety of mixes in deeper, deompression diving does help me as an instructor).

Nitrox is straight up academics, just like you said. Sidemount isn't simply academics. Infact, there's little academics to it, its all setup, muscle memory, practice, all of its pretty unique to any given person.

Its not even apples and oranges, its apples... and icecream sammiches(yeah, I'm eating one now).

I am genuinely curious - What do you consider ‘appropriate sidemount training’? Again, I am interested in the opinions of others. I have my own views, based primarily on my BM experience. I obviously know what is in the Distinctive Specialty. What do you think should be in the training?

If I'm going to be mentoring under someone else, paid or not; I want them be able to tell me why I'm tilting one way or the other, the pros/cons of several different hose configurations, spg configurations, hardware attachments, for specific applications. What, where and why? Especially if I'm going to pay money, I expect this from someone who's an instructor.

Third, as for watering down the market, I am not altogether sure what the market is, that could be diluted. I don’t see a lot of people clamoring for recreational sidemount training. In our area, among the three primary shops, ours does much of the technical dive training, and that has been all in BM to date. And, there is a chasm between that level of training, and the recreational divers who want to gain more experience, but aren't ready to pursue full technical training. There hasn’t been particular interest in SM in our scuba club until the two of us that worked with Jeff in January started 'talking it up'. If anything, we are expanding the market, certainly the ultimate market for technical training, by helping recreational divers consider a feasible, practical, and orderly transition to double tank diving. Most of the SM divers in the area are DIYers, without formal training in SM. After we did a club presentation last month, I had another instructor in the shop, who I have known for a long time, inside scuba and out, tell me he had been sidemounting for a couple of years, on a DIY basis. I had no idea, nor was he aware of what I had been doing. There really isn’t a market there to dilute. Now, do I consider Jeff, for example, to be a more knowledgeable SM instructor than I? Absolutely. Am I siphoning off divers who would otherwise drive 12 hours to do a course with him. Hardly. Am I making it more difficult for Jeff to provide SM training to others? Not at all.

I know nothing about the market where you are, and my posts aren't only for your consideration, but for alot of new sidemount divers, who happened to also become new sidemount instructors. This is becoming more and more common.

Fourth, and not justifying whether 37 dives is enough ‘practical experience’, we have people teaching scuba who self-certify as an Instructor in a particular specialty solely on the basis of having done 20 dives in that specialty – no specific training as an instructor in the specialty. And, some seem to do a good job (and some probably do a piss poor job). But, that is the nature of instruction. In scuba, as in virtually every other discipline, there is a strong element of ‘see one, do one, teach one’. That is reality...

I'm not gonna argue it doesn't happen, and there are probably people who come away and eventually figure it out on their own after instruction. More experienced instruction would IMO yield a much better result and give students a much larger head start.

...And, I almost hate to say it, but it works.

It works, certification numbers grow steadily, as quality drops as the machine churns out divers quicker and quicker(same as instructors).

As a general principle, a good teacher - of anything - gets better over time. With added experience – both as a doer and a teacher - they learn new ways of doing things, improve techniques, acquire ‘tricks of the trade’, etc. So, I wouldn’t argue that after 50 SM dives I will probably be better than I am after 37, and after 100 I will probably be better than I will be after 50. But, frankly, the steepest part of the learning curve was the first 5. And, yes, there is always the element of, ‘You don’t know what you don’t know.’ Now, where I would possibly agree: I don’t think someone could effectively consider teaching SM without a technical / doubles diving background. For me, that is the practical experience that allows me to share sidemount with others.

If you think the steepest part of the learning curve was at dive 5, you should really wait until you've hit 100 and reevaluate yourself. I'm thinking by then, you'll hopefully realize you should probably have substantially more experience. Real experience, not in training, not in an environment where sloppy doesn't matter.
 
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