MK5 / 109 end of life? :(

[John C. Ratliff]

I have another question. I have a AIR 1 pilot, not the original Pilot but the black plastic one with the dive / pre-dive switch. Tech told SP wants them out of circulation there are no parts and he refused to service. What are my options if any? Darn thing breathes better than any other reg I've ever tried but now it's free flowing a bit.

AfterDark, take a look at the AIR I thread on this webpage (Vintage diving). I have posted some photos of the AIR I after I took mine apart. It is not a pilot valve, but is much simplified from the SP Pilot. I'd take it apart, clean it up and see whether it still leaks.

SeaRat

 

[AfterDark]

I'm sure Scubapro does want them out of circulation. But parts are available - at least most that would be needed to keep it working. The LP seat is the same as the D-series. I believe Scubapro has ended support for the D-series regs but kits (or just seats) are still readily available. Check with VDH. The only part that might be hard to find is a replacement diaphragm.

Tell the tech that you are going to replace your Air1 with a brand he does not carry. See if that changes his tune. Better yet, find another tech who will take care of it.

I'm kind of surprised at his attitude but he is hurting some so I suppose he's trying to generate some sales. I would have thought he'd know me well enough by now that my reaction wasn't / isn't going to be to buy new regulators. There is nothing more stubborn than a stubborn Portagee!

 

[redacted]

I'm kind of surprised at his attitude but he is hurting some so I suppose he's trying to generate some sales. I would have thought he'd know me well enough by now that my reaction wasn't / isn't going to be to buy new regulators. There is nothing more stYours must have the duro poppet so parts are pretty simple;.ubborn than a stubborn Portagee!

While he makes the choice, I have seen such policies pushed by manufacturers/distributors. A local Aqualung dealer told me how his distributor was suggesting that he not service any regulator he had not sold. To his credit, he rejected the idea. Perhaps a frank talk about whether he really wants to sent your business (and friend's) elsewhere might help.

DIY with a Mk5/109 is pretty easy. Yours must have the duro poppet so parts are pretty simple. Holler when you are ready to give it a try. The Air1 is a bit trickier; but also not that hard if you just do the seat and dynamic o-rings. Avoid messing with the diaphragm which is unnecessary in most case.

 

[AfterDark]

While he makes the choice, I have seen such policies pushed by manufacturers/distributors. A local Aqualung dealer told me how his distributor was suggesting that he not service any regulator he had not sold. To his credit, he rejected the idea. Perhaps a frank talk about whether he really wants to sent your business (and friend's) elsewhere might help.

DIY with a Mk5/109 is pretty easy. Yours must have the duro poppet so parts are pretty simple. Holler when you are ready to give it a try. The Air1 is a bit trickier; but also not that hard if you just do the seat and dynamic o-rings. Avoid messing with the diaphragm which is unnecessary in most case.

Mine does have the duro poppet. After reading the info I down loaded I'm thinking of using the balanced parts. The father of the tech / owner tried the balanced parts years ago but there were a lot of free flow issues. I never bothered asking his son to do it but I'd bet he could and make it right, he is a better regulator tech then his Dad.

It sure ani't rocket science and if can be done I'll do it. I even have the chrome cover with the BALANCED SECOND STAGE on it left over from the pervious attempt!

I actually have 4 109's 3 that I use 2 on ID's and one for pony / stage use. The fourth is disassembled for chroming. I haven't yet found a place to do it. The exhaust port needs a little silbraze also. I soldered it and it does work but it looks hacked and I'm not sure it will stand up to the chroming process. Thinking maybe a motorcycle shop may have a craftsman that can silbraze and a place they use that chromes small parts.

 

[Couv]

.......The father of the tech / owner tried the balanced parts years ago but there were a lot of free flow issues..........

Hi AfterDark,

You're correct; it ain't rocket science. The important thing about converting your 109 to a BA is to make sure you have all the correct parts and they are compatible. Go to Vintage Double Hose ? Index page click on Manuals and Catalogs -->Continue-->BLPEN163-->page 2-->ScubaPro--> click on and download ScubaPro poppet changes. You'll learn a lot from that file.

Keep in mind these 3 things:
1. The spring for a balanced poppet is very different.
2. The new poppet will also require a balance chamber.
3. The new poppet may not be compatible with the old lever.

....... The exhaust port needs a little silbraze also. I soldered it and it does work but it looks hacked and I'm not sure it will stand up to the chroming process..........

We need to talk. I don't know how expensive it would be to have this flange brazed, but I have been down the re-chrome road before and while I ended up with a beautiful showroom looking second stage, it was expensive. We need to talk because I may have a body in need of the left over parts you have OR you have parts in need of a left over body I have. Alternatively, if the damage does not extend into the main body and cause a leak, live with it-it just adds character.

It's time for AfterDark to come over to the Dark Side and join us in the DIY forum.

Cheers,

Couv

 

[AfterDark]

The new poppet will also require a balance chamber. What is a balance chamber? So are you suggesting I not have the old work horse chromed?
I am concerned that new chrome may change dimensions to the point that parts will not fit any longer so it won't take much to dissuade me.

I don't really have left over parts except for one diaphragm cover which you are welcome to if you need it, just tell me where to ship. Or if you have a DIN adapter for a MK5 we can work something out. I want to use a DIN setup on the pony. I think it'll cut down on the chance of water getting in the 1st stage when the air is off at depth which it is all the time.

I downloaded everything I could find about the 109 / MK5 including the poppet changes, that's where the idea of trying the balanced 2nd again came from. It looks so easy and straight forward I don't understand why it didn't work the 1st time.

I bought a 109 balance 2nd stage on Ebay for $40.00. When it gets here I'm going to disassemble it and check out the parts especially the lever.
I guess the 1st tool I'll need to buy will be the IP adjuster in order to put it back together. Thanks for the tips COUV, by the way I've always like your Aqualung icon. Probably lost on everyone outside the vintage site!

 

[Couv]

The new poppet will also require a balance chamber. What is a balance chamber?

Have a look at page 3 of the “Poppet Document.” All the pictures show from left to right the poppet, the spring, and balance chamber. Pressure flows through this type of poppet into the balance chamber. That pressure acts on the innermost o-ring and assist the mechanical spring to supply the closing force of the demand valve. Compare the balanced poppet to the unbalanced poppets on page 2 that do not use a balance chamber.

So are you suggesting I not have the old work horse chromed?

It’s been my experience that the cost of re-chroming a part usually cost more than finding a replacement, but YMMV.


I am concerned that new chrome may change dimensions to the point that parts will not fit any longer so it won't take much to dissuade me.

Not likely. Chrome plating is pretty thin, and while it sometimes does affect areas where there are threads involved, if done correctly, that shouldn’t be the case.


I don't really have left over parts except for one diaphragm cover which you are welcome to if you need it, just tell me where to ship. Or if you have a DIN adapter for a MK5 we can work something out. I want to use a DIN setup on the pony. I think it'll cut down on the chance of water getting in the 1st stage when the air is off at depth which it is all the time.

Search Awap's post for info on using a DIN on a MK5.

I downloaded everything I could find about the 109 / MK5 including the poppet changes, that's where the idea of trying the balanced 2nd again came from. It looks so easy and straight forward I don't understand why it didn't work the 1st time.

I bought a 109 balance 2nd stage on Ebay for $40.00. When it gets here I'm going to disassemble it and check out the parts especially the lever.

I guess the 1st tool I'll need to buy will be the IP adjuster in order to put it back together.

Your next purchase should be Regulator Savvy.


Thanks for the tips COUV, by the way I've always like your Aqualung icon. Probably lost on everyone outside the vintage site!

You would be surprised at the number of comments I’ve received from the wippersnapers who recognized my avatar. Of course, it usually includes a statement like, “My dad/grandfather has that Jethro Tull album.” J
​

 

[herman]

IP adjuster??
I am guessing you mean the inline second stage orifice adjustment tool.....adjustment of the IP is done with shims in the first stage so no tool needed other than an IP gauge. If you are refering to the in-line second stage adjustement tool, it is a nice to have but using a screwdriver and the "adjust a little and test method" you can do the same job without one. Its a slower process but all I use. With a little practice you can get pretty close at first shot and with an externally adjustable reg like the 109, it is no where are critical as it is in a non externally adjustable reg. If you don't know the "adjust and test" method I can describe the procedure for you.

 

[AfterDark]

I guess it was too soon after getting out of bed, balance chamber wasn't getting thru I know what mean now thanks, It won't be much good without that part!

Herman, I'm not schooled in the adjust and test method. Hope its not like the poke and hope method in electronics!

 

[herman]

Not nearly as bad.

Here is the short version;

1. Check and set first stage IP....this is ALWAYS your first step anytime you are adjusting/trouble shooting a second stage
2. Assemble second stage, screw in the LP orifice a few turns, ALWAYS press the purge button when turning the orifice to prevent cutting the seat. On 109s I keep the adjuster completely out.
3. Alternately blow into the reg and adjust orifice in until you can not get air to pass then give it maybe 1/4 of a turn more.
How much is one of those experience things based on your reg.
4. connect second stage and apply pressure. The oring does the sealing so barely finger tight is fine, no need to wrench the hose tight now.
5. If it leaks (it will unless you are really good), depressurize, remove second and adjust the orifice in slightly...1/8 turn at MOST. The difference in correct and too much is small. Remember to hold the purge button when adjusting the orifice.
6. Reassemble and retest. I like my adjustable seconds to just barely leak with the adjuster completely out....not the factory suggestion but the one I prefer. If mine leaks just slightly at full out and stops with a turn or so of the adjuster I am done. If it still leaks, go back to 5 and repeat. When repeating step 5 reduce the amount of adjustment of the orifce to 1/16 of a turn, it only takes a little bit to go from not enough to too much.
7 Once it does not leak, tighten the hose. Again, the oring does the sealing so just tight enough to prevent it from coming loose is fine.

At first it will take you 4 or 5 times to get the setting correct but with experience it gets easier. Shops don't want to spend the extra time and so the expense of the tool is worth it but for the beginning DIYer, your money is better spent on other tools and books...after you have read Reg Savvy, you should consider "Maintenance and Repair of Scuba Regulators". It has somewhat of a different perspective on the subject and leans more tward the DIY side.
You may want to go just a little past where it freeflows slightly when the adjustment knob is fully open on a freshly rebuilt reg since the seat will take some set and it's fairly normal for the to need a little more adjustment after a while. I just crank in another turn on the adjuster... When doing non externally adjustable regs like the 108 I tend to adjust them slighly tighter since I know the seat will take some set but since it's fairly easy to do this adjustment in the field I don't worry about it too much on my regs........which is another reason to get the hang of doing it without the tool.