My dive incident

[Jim Lapenta]

Do we even know if the DM was in fact a DM or just an experienced diver? Also on these types of dives was the DM even aware of the problem the OP was having. If one shows up for an advanced dive many times the crew believes that the person is capable of doing the dive, knows how much weight they need, or has the judgment to decide to dive or not. This again given the state of training by many today is no longer a given. Divers are handed cards that they have no business possessing. But it is good for business. It brings in money to the shops, agencies, and operators. I am becoming more and more disenchanted by the "they will be diving with a DM or Guide anyway" mentality so it;s ok to give them a card. I will not allow myself to fall into that mode. Should I ever start thinking like that I'll quit. I could not look in the mirror at myself if I were to let one person get certified in any discipline if I had the least doubt that they had been given the best possible education I could give them. Not only in terms of skills but in terms of having the KNOWLEDGE to take an honest look at the site, the conditions, the BS that the resort or operator may be spewing about how safe the dive is, and then at their own level of comfort and skill and decide if it was a good idea to do the dive. I will also use the loved one approach when making the decision to award a certification. Because I do not sell certs. I sell training. Certifications are EARNED. I have the freedom to deny a cert to a diver who even though may master every skill required if I feel their attitude towards safety is lacking. I can deny it to someone who demonstrates poor judgment when planning a dive. That simply meeting agency minimums for certification means that the diver has to get a card looks like a trial lawyers dream.
Mr Instructor: Did the student demonstrate a complete disregard for safety protocols?
Yes.
Did he repeatedly wander off, ignore requests to stay together?
Yes.
Would you have allowed your son or daughter to dive with him?
No.
Yet you issued him a certification card that allowed him to gain access to that 100 foot dive the next weekend?
Yes.
So when he did this dive and elected to go inside the wreck, get lost, run out of air, and drown he was essentially the same person who graduated from your training program?
Yes.
Was the dive operator aware of his propensity for recklessness?
Most likely not.
If you had not given him the certification based on your own judgment and concerns he would not have gained access to the dive, correct?
Perhaps, perhaps not.
SO given that it was possible that he may not have gained access had you not issued the card and would still be alive today, why did you?
He met agency standards.
So you had no choice but to issue the card or risk sanction by the agency?
Yes.
Thank you Mr Instructor.

We now call the defendant, xxxxxx Agency to the stand.

 

[DCBC]

Do we even know if the DM was in fact a DM or just an experienced diver? Also on these types of dives was the DM even aware of the problem the OP was having.

All we can understand is based on the information that the OP has given:

A. I am a new diver with 12 dives so far, 2 of them being in the ocean. This past weekend, I went for the 13th and looking back, I am feeling very lucky to be alive.

B. "we got on board and I told both the captain and the Divemaster that I was a new diver with only 2 ocean dives before."

C. The divemaster told me to stay with him in that case.

D. The first dive was going to be to 90ft. ...on Nitrox

E. Being the newbie, I put my trust in the Divemaster, thinking he would keep things safe for me. ...No real buddying up, no checks...

F. I just wish the DM would oversee my safety, especially after I told him I was new.

Given the above statements, I'd think that:

1. There was a DM (possibly untrained, but holding himself out to be in a position of responsibility) on a boat operating in the commercial business of diving charters;

2. The operator/DM did not check equipment or assign buddy teams;

3. Was well aware of the OPs lack of experience; and

4. The DM accepted a leadership position as a buddy with the OP.

If one shows up for an advanced dive many times the crew believes that the person is capable of doing the dive, knows how much weight they need, or has the judgment to decide to dive or not. This again given the state of training by many today is no longer a given. Divers are handed cards that they have no business possessing. But it is good for business. It brings in money to the shops, agencies, and operators. I am becoming more and more disenchanted by the "they will be diving with a DM or Guide anyway" mentality so it;s ok to give them a card. I will not allow myself to fall into that mode. Should I ever start thinking like that I'll quit. I could not look in the mirror at myself if I were to let one person get certified in any discipline if I had the least doubt that they had been given the best possible education I could give them. Not only in terms of skills but in terms of having the KNOWLEDGE to take an honest look at the site, the conditions, the BS that the resort or operator may be spewing about how safe the dive is, and then at their own level of comfort and skill and decide if it was a good idea to do the dive. I will also use the loved one approach when making the decision to award a certification. Because I do not sell certs. I sell training. Certifications are EARNED. I have the freedom to deny a cert to a diver who even though may master every skill required if I feel their attitude towards safety is lacking. I can deny it to someone who demonstrates poor judgment when planning a dive. That simply meeting agency minimums for certification means that the diver has to get a card looks like a trial lawyers dream.

Absolutely. I totally agree; hence my position on training standards. The Instructor has a responsibility to insure that the student is trained properly before they are certified. The DM has a responsibility to insure the dive is undertaken safely and best practices are followed. Moreover they are required to insure that the divers have the necessary training and experience to insure that the dive may be undertaken safely. The diver is responsible for himself, however he cannot know what he doesn't know. There is an element of trust that he will be trained properly after he pays his money.

 

[RJP]

There's one particular area I'd like to focus on for a moment, which is the need for clear communication between diver and DM.

All we can understand is based on the information that the OP has given:

B. "we got on board and I told both the captain and the Divemaster that I was a new diver with only 2 ocean dives before."

For some context, here's two points from the PADI DM manual, with my emphasis added...

FIRST:
"As a Divemaster, your job is to provide certified divers with the degree of supervision that meets their goals for enjoyment and safety. This means that how much advice you give and the procedures you recommend will vary depending on the divers' experience and training, and the local environment."

SECOND:
"It's neither possible nor realistic to expect you to individually assess every diver in a group you are supervising. You cannot know a diver's experience, skill level, and comfort to the degree they do about themselves."

Where I'm going with this is, that before we lynch the DM here, we'd have to examine whether the OP adequately communicated the specific "goals" that he had in mind for the dive op overall and the DM specifically. In fact, the OP had certain things that he knew he REQUIRED of the DM. Did he make that clear?

Exactly WHAT and HOW the OP communicated to the captain and the DM when he told them that he "was a new diver with only 2 ocean dives before" is important. While factually consistent along those lines, there's a big difference between the following two statements:

• I've got my AOW and Nitrox cert cards right here, and I've done two ocean dives before. I'm looking forward to diving with you guys today, but I don't have a buddy.

• While I do technically have AOW and Nitrox certs, I have very little experience diving in the ocean - only two dives - so I'm not really comfortable in this environment. Also, I don't have a buddy, and I'm really hoping I can relying on you guys to ensure my safety and comfort on these dives. And I see we're doing three dives, not two. I'm really uncomfortable with the trip plan overall in terms of number of dives and depth, but, against my better judgment, I'm coming anyway. Oh, and by the way I'm diving a new 7mm wetsuit that I've never used before - having only worn a 3mm suit for all my previous dives.

These two statements would certainly call for two widely different levels of supervision and commitment on the part of the DM.

It's easy to see how the first statement might warrant an "OK, just stay near me" from the DM.

The second statement provides a whole different level of context, and I would suspect that even the most lackadaisical DM in the world would not tell THAT diver "OK, just stay with me."

Ultimately...

...could the DM have done a better job supervising the OP on the dive?
- Probably

...could the OP's instructor have done a better job preparing the OP in the first place?
- Certainly

...is the OP still singularly responsible for putting himself in this specific situation?
- Absolutely

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I'm aware of the danger involved. "Got chopped-up in the props?" The onus is on the Captain of the vessel to adequately address safety and not be turning the screws with divers in the water unless a safety policy has been communicated and understood by everyone.... .

This would be funny if it wasn't so serious. The captain is required to operate the boat to support other divers and pick them up, retreive fish etc in wind and waves, current, sometimes rain storms and also operate the vessel in a defensive manner to block or intercept other boats so that they will not endanger the divers.

I've operated private dive boats in those conditions many hundreds of times and it can be stressful and challenging. The single most dangerous thing in the ocean is a live boat being operated around divers.

The safety policy is control your buoyancy and don't shoot to the surface (faster than your bubbles). Operating a boat under these conditions with a dozen (or 2 DZ) divers in the water is a challenge and for some measure of safety, if a diver is NOT ascending in the immediate vicinity of the float ball, then the diver should deploy an SMB and SLOWLY ascend under it. Divers that shoot to the surface at warp speed in unexpected locations make it impossible for the capt to ensure their safety.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

There's one particular area I'd like to focus on for a moment, which is the need for clear communication between diver and DM.



For some context, here's two points from the PADI DM manual, with my emphasis added...

FIRST:
"As a Divemaster, your job is to provide certified divers with the degree of supervision that meets their goals for enjoyment and safety. This means that how much advice you give and the procedures you recommend will vary depending on the divers' experience and training, and the local environment."

SECOND:
"It's neither possible nor realistic to expect you to individually assess every diver in a group you are supervising. You cannot know a diver's experience, skill level, and comfort to the degree they do about themselves."

Where I'm going with this is, that before we lynch the DM here, we'd have to examine whether the OP adequately communicated the specific "goals" that he had in mind for the dive op overall and the DM specifically. In fact, the OP had certain things that he knew he REQUIRED of the DM. Did he make that clear?

Exactly WHAT and HOW the OP communicated to the captain and the DM when he told them that he "was a new diver with only 2 ocean dives before" is important. While factually consistent along those lines, there's a big difference between the following two statements:

• I've got my AOW and Nitrox cert cards right here, and I've done two ocean dives before. I'm looking forward to diving with you guys today, but I don't have a buddy.

• While I do technically have AOW and Nitrox certs, I have very little experience diving in the ocean - only two dives - so I'm not really comfortable in this environment. Also, I don't have a buddy, and I'm really hoping I can relying on you guys to ensure my safety and comfort on these dives. And I see we're doing three dives, not two. I'm really uncomfortable with the trip plan overall in terms of number of dives and depth, but, against my better judgment, I'm coming anyway. Oh, and by the way I'm diving a new 7mm wetsuit that I've never used before - having only worn a 3mm suit for all my previous dives.

These two statements would certainly call for two widely different levels of supervision and commitment on the part of the DM.

It's easy to see how the first statement might warrant an "OK, just stay near me" from the DM.

The second statement provides a whole different level of context, and I would suspect that even the most lackadaisical DM in the world would not tell THAT diver "OK, just stay with me."

Ultimately...

...could the DM have done a better job supervising the OP on the dive?
- Probably

...could the OP's instructor have done a better job preparing the OP in the first place?
- Certainly

...is the OP still singularly responsible for putting himself in this specific situation?
- Absolutely

I agree with most all of this. For this area, people must understand that the DM/dive guide is dumped in the water with a dozen people sometimes. It is impossible to lead the dive and "buddy-up" with everyone at the same time. It is my opinion that if a dive guide is certified at the DM or instructor level it does NOT require them to be responsible for every certified diver who enters the water or who is directed to stay with the dive guide.

I was serving as a dive guide one time when a guy who started diving in my group, somehow came up under a boat and had his skull split and also his spinal cord severed at the neck. On a subsequent dive, I recovered his body and inadvertantly looked down into his brain during the ascent. These kinds of experiences (and other deaths I've seen) leave me with a very serious respect for some of the dangers that diving presents.

I made it very clear to the investigating agencies that I was a volunteer "dive guide". I feel bad about the accident but I am not in any way responsible for the fatality. We are not talking about theoretical or esoteric ideas about live boat diving, this is a deadly serious topic and the individual must dive in a responsible manner if they want to be reasonably safe.

 

[Web Monkey]

There's one particular area I'd like to focus on for a moment, which is the need for clear communication between diver and DM.

For some context, here's two points from the PADI DM manual, with my emphasis added...

FIRST:
"As a Divemaster, your job is to provide certified divers with the degree of supervision that meets their goals for enjoyment and safety. This means that how much advice you give and the procedures you recommend will vary depending on the divers' experience and training, and the local environment."

While it's nice that the DM has written recommendations from PADI, this is all irrelevant from the diver's point of view.

It's completely irresponsible to rely on the DM for any critical aspects of the dive, since the diver has absolutely no idea how much "assistance" any particular DM is willing or able to provide. Or even worse, whether or not any particular DM is simply an irresponsible dumbass. Note that I'm not throwing any particular DM under the bus here. Nobody should be relying on an unknown diver for any level of safety.

The problem isn't that any particular DM is incompetent, the problem is that divers are being let out of OW class without sufficient knowledge and confidence to dive on their own and who know when to say "This dive doesn't look like it's right for me, I'm not going in."

The other problem is that knowing the current state of training, dive ops and DMs still aren't exercising appropriate pre-dive judgement. While the DM can't judge everybody's experience, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at a C-Card that says "5 or more logged dives" and know that a 90' mob dive probably isn't appropriate.

AFAIK, everybody screwed up here. The OP should have known enough to say "no", the DM should have certainly known enough to say "no" and even the person in the office that sold the slot on the boat should have known enough to say "no".

There just aren't enough people around who are willing to take a stand and say "no" when necessary.

Terry

 

[drdaddy]

Of course that's a silly assertion.



Anyone with a realistic knowledge of just how "advanced" an Advanced Open Water course really is (or isn't) understands that this course is nothing more than "Open Water - Part 2" and there is really no reason whatsoever that it cannot be taken the very next day after receiving your temporary OW c-card.

Similarly, there is nothing magical, advanced or particularly challenging about diving with EANx. Other than learning how to use an analyzer and how to properly label tank contents, all of the skills for diving EANx are already present in the basic OW course materials.

My point is that OP was not "Anyone with a realistic knowledge of just how "advanced" an Advanced Open Water course really is (or isn't) ..."

One thing that comes with experience in diving is further awareness of the risks (and hopefully how to mitigate/take care of yourself). Most of the time, a newbie really doesn't understand where they are in the learning curve. His instructor should have known where his/her students are and clearly conveyed this to them. Years ago I remember that our instructor explained to us that even though we had received "such and such" certification - we were still new to diving and had a lot to learn that only experience would bring.

About Nitrox. Yes, it is a simple concept. But those new to diving do not understand how it all works together.

While I believe the OP is responsible for his own safety, the DM and boat operator, and the person who took the reservation have a certain level of responsibility to ascertain whether their charges have the ability to perform the dive safely.

We are all glad that the OP is alive and uninjured. And it appears that he has learned his limitations and I hope that he will continue learning and diving .

 

[diverrex]

Agreed that several participants could have handled this better, charter, DM and the diver. Part of training that need more emphasis I think is for new divers to understand that all diving is not the same. Conditions and customs can vary wildly by location and/or by dive op. I've been to a number of easy tropical locations with quality ops and 6 or fewer divers to a DM where I'd assume this diver would have been fine. But in WPB with current, deep depths and maybe more divers per DM and trouble happens. New divers need to understand that, and ask questions. I'm by no means an expert diver with only 225 dives, but am very decent and have dived in a variety of conditions, yet if I was to take my first trip to WPB and I didn't have a known experienced buddy with me I'd pay extra for a private DM, at least the first day's dive as I got the lay of the conditions and routine. It needs emphasized more to new divers, just because you are now certified, maybe even a little experienced, you shouldn't just jump on any dive boat and go diving.

 

[Doc Harry]

My Suunto was also in the freakout mode. He told me he could have someone take a look at it and maybe reset! I said no. I m done.

Smart! Good job!

I think a lot of experienced divers forget what it was like to be a new diver.

 

[Karel26]

Hi aozger. .

Glad you fine. . I had a alomst simmiliar experience last
year of a uncontroled ascent. . Just before the dive i noticed
that my weight belt buckle was not on securely, so i fixed before
and went on carring diving. . The whole dive eveything was
a-okay. . The problem came when we started our ascents, for
some reason my weight belt got loose by the buckle and i was
between 60 and 50 feet. . There was my dive buddy next to me,
the dm, a instructor and a comercial diver. . No one could have done
any thing for me, except me myself and I. . When i got to the surface
my 1ste thought was that i am going to get dcs, so i turned around
wnet back to 15 feet and stayed there for a few min. . I have to be
honest it was quite hard to stay down there with no weight belt and
my wetsuit is 5mm, so it kept me bussy to stay down there. .

I was extreamly lucky not to get DCS. . I have to be honest, i am glad
it happend to me. . I have a learned a lot that day. . After the dive
a few people gave advice on how i should handle it. . A few months
after my incident it hapend again, I had a strong cureent that swept
me from 54 foot to round about 36 feet, this time i knew exactly what
to do and i just stayed calm and focused and did what the more
expeirence divers told me to do and i was safe. .

P.s aozger don't take the bad out of your incidants, make the
best out of them to talk to other people ask for advice and
forget the negitave, by doing that you will become a better
better diver. . Happy and safe divings. .

Live to dive and Dive to live. . . . :burnout: