New Wreck In Picton!!!

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Mr Adams:
... I also need to stress that when shooting professional video underwater, the camera man doesn't have time to watch out were he's going as its up to his two tenders on each side to guide him through his shoot run, thats there job, but in this case it looks like they were asleep on the job and yes! at times the camera man may go off course and bump into something, so relax nothing is as clean cut as you see it on TV, and if some one tries to tell you it is clean cut work there full of ****.

Mr A

LOL - OK, I've stayed out of this one until now, but let me get this straight... you're saying that carrying a broadcast quality video camera automatically gives you piss poor situational awareness and crappy bouyancy skills?

That's funny... you learn something every day. :rolleyes:
 
Mr Adams:
Greetings


Man O man you guys are incredible, I thought you were all under the same roof on this issue. Wrecks kept in good condition bring in dollars for both the diving and hospitality businesses, this is a good thing. I know who that guy is kneeling on the deck of this wreck in the photograph and I know the two guys who picked it clean four years ago, but thats my secret. I also need to stress that when shooting professional video underwater, the camera man doesn't have time to watch out were he's going as its up to his two tenders on each side to guide him through his shoot run, thats there job, but in this case it looks like they were asleep on the job and yes! at times the camera man may go off course and bump into something, so relax nothing is as clean cut as you see it on TV, and if some one tries to tell you it is clean cut work there full of ****.

Mr A

I know my problem, I'm not a professional that's why I don't beat the wreck up. Note to self don't sell any video. :D
 
SoScuba:
That point still stands. Disturbing anything on a wreck is against the law. Don't get me wrong here (as some of you have). I think its great you cleaned up the wreck and removed all those un-natural attachments (pun intended just for you steve). But really...as I understand it , it's still illegal! Legally those are not our wrecks to do with what we please. They are owned by the government who have made laws regarding the handling of "their" property. Those who add grappling hooks and line are breaking the law. So are the ones who remove it! Am I wrong here?????

Sean, as you know my background is in open ocean wrecks but I believe that the law refers to removing or damaging items from an object of historical significance (usually older than X years). A grappling hook or some morons mooring aid do not count.

If the law is different here let me stand corrected in advance.

Wayne
 
James P

I believe your only half correct, some underwater film shoots do go quite smoothly with out incident, but not all, and being a GUE or other method diver doesn't determine the out come, its a team effort with many different skills brought together that makes the shoot.

Mr A
 
JamesP:
Sorry folks but I just took a look through this stuff and I don't see where it says SoScuba is correct. Would you please take the time to post the section and/or subsection of the heritage act that says it is so. I do see a lot of other information which allows for latitude and individual interpretation but nothing else.

All I ask is please show where it states you are in fact correct. I am asking that you look at what the act really says; not what you think it says or what someone else has told you it says.

This is of interest to the majority of us.
Thanks

OK we will go slow....

A wreck is always owned by someone under Canadian Law. All of the stuff on the wreck is therefore also owned by someone. The hereitage act specifies items or places of historical interests and applies more stringent rules. The Salvage rules under the Canadian Shipping act gives some more rules and the law against theft gives another set of rules.

A wreck considered "abandoned" is still owned by the Government of Canada, all the items (whether considered artifacts or not) on the wreck are by extension owned by the Government. Any abandoned property in Canadian waters are owned by the Government. If you want to remove anything from a wreck you are supposed to have either an archeology permit or a salvage license (ie. permission from the owner)

If you take something from someone without their permission - it is called theft.

Yep, the law make no distinction between trash and treasure.

Yep, clean up dives are illegal too.

Yep, it is not enforced.

Yep, it is a silly law and should be fixed.

I'm not trying to justify, merely explain.
 
Ontario Diver,
I also thougt some where in the paper that an object is not concidered abandoned until a certain time frame had passed.

Just a note here
One of the reasons the rope, anchor, grappling hook and coke can etc, would be of interest to the research guys is for dating etc. They just shouldn't had to in the first place.
 
Tom R:
Ontario Diver,
I also thougt some where in the paper that an object is not concidered abandoned until a certain time frame had passed.

Just a note here
One of the reasons the rope, anchor, grappling hook and coke can etc, would be of interest to the research guys is for dating etc. They just shouldn't had to in the first place.

An object is usually not considered "abandoned" until the owner has relinquished (sp?) ownership usually by inaction (not looking for it or salvaging it) or by action (Claiming insurance or writing the boat off) .

For example, you sink your favourite dive boat. The boat, in 400 fsw :D ; is still yours. You put in a claim with the insurance company and they pay. Now the boat is thiers. As long as they look for or make plans to salvage the boat, it is still thiers. If they write off the asset for tax purposes, they have abandoned it. If they cease looking for it, they have abandoned it. The time frame seems to be "in the court's eye" about how long it is. I have not seen anything that lays out a specific time but have seen references to it in a number of articles.

Then of course things get interesting....As I understand Algoma was paid off for the Jodrey - but I heard that they still are getting nailed for "clean up" work on her.....
 
You have to remember the Jod is in US waters, different rules.

Just a side note here
The Irving Whale was leaking oil for years and the Irving company said hey it's not our boat then the Canadian Government raised it and there was a couple of million barrels of oil on her still. Companies response " Hey that's our boat".
 
Tom R:
The Irving Whale was leaking oil for years and the Irving company said hey it's not our boat then the Canadian Government raised it and there was a couple of million barrels of oil on her still. Companies response " Hey that's our boat".


Ahhhh. Don't you love being Canadian!
 
Ontario Diver:
An object is usually not considered "abandoned" until the owner has relinquished (sp?) ownership usually by inaction (not looking for it or salvaging it) or by action (Claiming insurance or writing the boat off) .

For example, you sink your favourite dive boat. The boat, in 400 fsw :D ; is still yours. You put in a claim with the insurance company and they pay. Now the boat is thiers. As long as they look for or make plans to salvage the boat, it is still thiers. If they write off the asset for tax purposes, they have abandoned it. If they cease looking for it, they have abandoned it. The time frame seems to be "in the court's eye" about how long it is. I have not seen anything that lays out a specific time but have seen references to it in a number of articles.

Then of course things get interesting....As I understand Algoma was paid off for the Jodrey - but I heard that they still are getting nailed for "clean up" work on her.....

The problem in Ontario and elsewhere is that no one knows (Government and police) what is enforceable and what is not.

Back in the days when Bill 13 was a possibility, there was a tremendous amount of outrage as to what the Ontario Government was trying to jam down our throats. The idea was good, but the way it was worded, could have stopped all wreck diving in the province. During the hearings, a number of points were brought up, such as the fact that Ontario had no juridiction over shipwrecks. The Standing committee was to have the provinces legal deptment look into the canadian shipping act which being Federal whould take presidents. The Bill was not going to pass as written and it was aggreed that more input was needed from the listed stakeholders. The Goverenment changed and the Bill died.

Guess what? New Goverenment. Bill 179. As a "housecleaning" bill, essentially an addition to an existing one, no public hearings were required. Most of the proposed Bill 13 material was added to the existing Ontario Heritage Act. No talks with Stakeholders as promised by the previous Goverenment. No investigation by the Provinces Legal Dept. So now we have a law that police don't (or can't) want to enforce because if it goes to court it can be argued that the Federal Act takes president.

As far as the Atlantic, there was never any ban on diving the site, even during the court case. For those that took the time to read the judges injuction, it prevented the parties in the hearing from diving the site without the others permission.
A number of people were diving the site on a regular bassis. It was requested that we notify the OPP before doing so, but we were never stopped.

As far as ownership of the Atlantic, it became the Provinces mainly because Mike, who was looking at several hundred thousand dollars in legal fees decided to partner with the province part way throught the case. If he had of held out, he could well have become the owner under Federal law. This was something he was not interested in number one, or prepared to risk loosing and paying number two. He started the courtcase to protect the wreck from an American Salvage company which was sometiming the Feds as well as the Province didn't seem to want to do. Ontario entering the case seemed almost an afterthought on their part. The ruling has never been contested in Federal Court.

For those that are too young or too new to remember Bill 13, there is still information listed at the following web site including all the transcripts of the hearings. http://www.vaxxine.com/nda/bill13.htm
If you have a hard time getting to sleep some night, this should help. Ian
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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