No solo diving in overhead environment

[OtherHalf]

No agenda. I just want straight forward answers to straight forward questions. If you can help me please feel free. If you cannot, please avoid trolling.

---------- Post added January 31st, 2014 at 12:31 AM ----------

Some forms of diving are inherently more risky than others. However, some forms of diving are so risky that they are not recommended. The written statements of both SDI and NACD clearly convey that they consider solo diving in an overhead environment should be considered the latter.

Jaydubya, you are claiming these two statements are the same thing. I view this obfuscation as a further attempt to justify your previous comments that clearly contradict the stated NACD position on solo cave diving.

Is confronting people with their deception or mistakes trolling?

Yet, its already been established that there is at least one agency that does have a solo-cave course in their approved curriculum. Even if it was conceded that NACD and SDI disapprove of the practice, there are other agencies that approve. I don't understand what you're trying to get at. There is a course that teaches the practice, some admit they feel that being certified in solo and cave separately is enough training for them to dive safely alone in overhead environments without that specialized course. Its their decision. I can't imagine that any course that is not a solo-overhead course is going to advocate the practice.

I have to agree, I see an agenda but don't understand what you want to know.

 

[Foxfish]

I have to agree, I see an agenda but don't understand what you want to know.

Which course would that be? Agency and title please. Have you done it? Agenda is to find out the policy of the various training agencies on diving solo in overhead environments.

 

[victorzamora]

....some admit they feel that being certified in solo and cave separately is enough training for them to dive safely alone in overhead environments without that specialized course.....

Many feel that being certified CAVE is enough traning for them to dive safely alone in overhead environments without that specialized course. A buddy in a cave is predominantly a worry. If I'm solo, I don't have to keep track of anybody's light. I don't have to keep track of their gas, the pace of their swimming, their navigational decisions, I don't have to worry about my buddy freaking out. Overall, it's much less stress to dive a cave solo than it is with a buddy, imho. I enjoy the cave less if I'm solo, though. I like experiencing it with a buddy (and with his primary ).

A Strong Diving Partner Philosophy. The NACD strongly advocates diving with a partner as the best approach to safe cave diving. This system is one, which unites two or more individuals into an effective dive team. A partner is a member of a team who, in case of emergency, provides both emergency equipment, and the emergency gas supply. The divers must recognize individual strengths and weaknesses, create an attitude of mutual trust and honesty, and avoid personality differences to maximize team safety.

This is what you posted from NACD, right? Is it right off of their website? Their book states that diving in a cave solo is up to the Full Cave diver. This blurb also doesn't explicitly prohibit or denegrate any solo dives. It may discourage it, openly on their website, but they do say the final choice is up to you.

Any good tech course will teach you how to complete a dive solo.....I'd bet even GUE teaches it, and they're the grand-daddy-masters of team diving. I know that I was taught that I had better NEVER be on a dive that I couldn't accomplish solo, and my training was focused on that exact philosophy. I know exactly what to do in case a buddy has an issue, and I know exactly what to do if a buddy gets sucked into a blackhole, never to be seen again....no matter what issue I have.

In the OP, you posted that you asked about solo diving in an overhead and posted a picture of a diver in an overhead, solo. The picture seemed to be what you were asking [-]permission for[/-] about. It seems pretty clear that the diver has little or no tech/overhead experience, and as such, puts him in a drastically different category of diver than what is being discussed now. A Full Cave diver has the training for overhead. A Cave or Deco diver has been trained beyond Solo/Self-Sufficient recreational courses in terms of self-rescue and solo ability. A rec-only diver diving in an overhead isn't good. One doing so solo, is worse. Seemingly without the proper gear, much worse. A Full Cave diver deciding to dive solo in a cave, with the proper equipment and mindset, is a vastly different story.

---------- Post added January 31st, 2014 at 08:31 AM ----------

various training agencies on diving solo in overhead environments.

Most agencies have the same belief as the NACD: "Buddy is good. Solo is fine, if you choose to dive solo....but it's on you."

 

[tstormdiver]

No agenda. I just want straight forward answers to straight forward questions. If you can help me please feel free. If you cannot, please avoid trolling.

---------- Post added January 31st, 2014 at 12:31 AM ----------

Some forms of diving are inherently more risky than others. However, some forms of diving are so risky that they are not recommended. The written statements of both SDI and NACD clearly convey that they consider solo diving in an overhead environment should be considered the latter.

Jaydubya, you are claiming these two statements are the same thing. I view this obfuscation as a further attempt to justify your previous comments that clearly contradict the stated NACD position on solo cave diving.

Is confronting people with their deception or mistakes trolling?

What most people & the agencies, here are saying, is the individual must ultimately decide for themselves about the risks of solo diving, done within the confines of the training & experience of the diver. There is no straightforward answer, because 1 diver's training & experience is different from another's. To say that solo diving in an overhead environment is acceptable, is to open one's self or the agency to risk of litigation in the event of an incident. SDI's stance is that the solo course is designed for the recreational diver,... not the diver already trained in overhead environments. A diver trained in overhead environments typically already have the skills & knowledge to conduct solo dives, within their training skill sets.... But it is up to the diver to decide for themselves whether it is the prudent thing to do. The closest answer you will find is, as stated above (the decision is up to the individual, within their training & experience) & that the may be reasons for solo to be chosen over a team setting. At the technical level, a diver should be experienced & skilled enough to know their limitations. I really don't know how to explain it any more simply than this. Although the discussion here has been very good,.... it is now going in circles, saying the same thing again & again.

 

[Foxfish]

If you would like to help, I'm asking for a few simple factual responses to questions in post #80. Thanks.

 

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

That first time you have to close one of your posts because of a failure, then hang all alone for 20 mins at deco while you can hear your heart beating, that is the moment you learn about solo. The SDI manual, was kind of amusing in comparison.

If you are looking to solo in an overhead, you are pushing the bounds of the sport. You need to be seriously on top of your game in terms of skills and reactions to failures. . . or you can roll the dice.

Every technical course I have been on has stressed the importance of being able to complete the dive alone (even with a failure or two thrown in). Then it is nice to have the buddy and good buddy skills are trained to avoid separation and to facilitate team work. My full cave course included some discussion of solo both with the instructor and there was one question in the knowledge review / exam.

I am not sure what additional would be gained from a solo overhead course. If you need such a course you are not ready for overhead yet. I solo wrecks and deco and have learnt that slowly and well within my comfort level is appropriate.

I have also learnt that my insurance company does not like this, but found one that will permit it.

To answer your questions, I am not aware of any agency that specifically offers a solo overhead course. Not that my knowledge on the matter is particularly extensive either.

 

[victorzamora]

If you would like to help, I'm asking for a few simple factual responses to questions in post #80. Thanks.

You've asked a few questions since then, and have refused to respond to many good thoughts on the subject matter. Below, I'm answering your questions from post #80....and I'm sure the VAST majority of Full Cave Divers will have the same responses. I have done, and will continue to do, solo cave dives. I enjoy them. I see nothing wrong with them, for the right person that is properly trained.

A. Did you do an industry recognized training course for diving in overhead environments.
Yes.

B. What was the course title and what was the teaching agency.
The most advanced course I have taken and completed was Full Cave Diver through PSAI.

C. Did the course book state one of its intended aims was to train to you to dive solo in an overhead environment.
No, but it was made clear that Full Cave is it. Anything you now do is up to you. It was also made very clear that any dive I'm on, I should be able to complete alone.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Your comments are misleading as they suggest the NACD are neutral on the matter of solo cave diving and it is entirely left up to the individual to decide. Clearly the comments of their website indicate otherwise. Their stated position is that they recommend cave diving with a buddy which means they do not recommend solo cave diving.

TDI, the sister company of SDI is a major cave diving instruction agency over here. I don't believe that TDI would contradict the comments made by SDI on this question of solo cave diving, but I'm interested to hear from others who may have done the TDI cave diving course on the matter.

God, I just love it when someone who has "educated" themselves on the internet insists on correcting people who have actually taken the class and done the dives ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[OtherHalf]

Which course would that be? Agency and title please. Have you done it? Agenda is to find out the policy of the various training agencies on diving solo in overhead environments.

Agency is PSAI, course is Solo Cave, I have not taken it.

I put it down in an earlier post.

And don't trust simply whats on an agency's website, call the instructor and talk to them about it. The IT for the above listed course is a member here. If you want details of the course, I imagine you'll be taking the course. Members have been stating policy from their own personal experience on what the position of various agencies are, but you seem unwilling to accept that without seeing it on a website. Do you need the verbatim quote from the book, or a soundbite from an instructor telling his class the official policy?

Why the desire to collect different agencies policies? There is/are an agency(s) that does the training, if you want the training go to them, if you're not interested in getting the training why worry yourself with it?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

No agenda. I just want straight forward answers to straight forward questions. If you can help me please feel free. If you cannot, please avoid trolling.

You've been given way more straight forward answers and help than your manner deserves.

Some forms of diving are inherently more risky than others. However, some forms of diving are so risky that they are not recommended. The written statements of both SDI and NACD clearly convey that they consider solo diving in an overhead environment should be considered the latter.

Agencies cannot possibly address every possible environment, circumstance, and contingency ... they make no pretense to even try to. What they provide you with is a framework and some rules of thumb around which to build experience and context. After that, the expectation is that you'll use your God-given brain functions to apply and adapt what you've learned as circumstances warrant. Some people are better at it than others.

You show classic symptoms of what I refer to as the "50-dive expert syndrome" ... thinking that you've got all the answers when it's clear you haven't even begun to comprehend the questions yet. I call it that because most folks go through that phase at about 50 dives ... just about the time they've completed a few classes and are beginning to feel comfortable with what they think they know. Some folks take a little longer to get to that point.

Jaydubya, you are claiming these two statements are the same thing. I view this obfuscation as a further attempt to justify your previous comments that clearly contradict the stated NACD position on solo cave diving.

How would you know ... have you actually spoken to someone who represents NACD? Would you even accept their answer?

FWIW - some of the people who run that organization solo dive in caves. Sometimes that's the safest way to do the dives they're doing. I really don't think, given your attitude, that it's possible to explain to you why ... you're too closed-minded to comprehend the answer.

Is confronting people with their deception or mistakes trolling?

No ... confronting people with your ignorance is. Trying to answer your questions is a waste of time ... clearly you're not even remotely interested in comprehending the answers.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)