Nomad JT or Bogaerts Razor 2 system??

[cool_hardware52]

I don't have to own a Razor2 to see that in the following video from :42-:57 the BAT wing creates quite a high profile in the rig. While Steve is diving 6 AL80s in this video so the profile may not look very high, replace the 6 AL80s with 2 steel cylinders. My calculations, given an average of 1.6 lbs negative buoyancy for a full AL80 (1.4 for a Luxfer, 1.8 for a Catalina) that 6 cylinders will be negatively buoyant by 9.6 lbs. A set of Worthington LP85s filled to 2640 will be 12 lbs negatively buoyant. Add another 1000 psi to each cylinder and you're adding about 4 more lbs for a total of 16 lbs. With a small set of steel cylinders, there is 6.4 lbs more negative buoyancy than in 6 AL80s. Even if he's diving all Catalinas, that's still 5.2 lbs more negative buoyancy with the steel LP85s. This will require the BAT wing to be filled even more than in that video. And there will not be stacked cylinders to offset the appearance of the high profile, filled BAT wing.

Full al 80's, rigged with a reg and stage kit aren't ~-2lbs, it's more like -4 lbs each.

What is being misrepresented in the false "Can't dive real man steel tanks with a Razor" argument is any BC correctly used is used to offset the weight of the gas, not the cylinders. Air and Nitrox is going to remain ~.08 lbs per lbs regardless of whether it is in a steel tank or aluminum tank.

More total gas volume requires more lift. 6 al 80's is about 460 cu ft of gas, a pair of cave filled 108's is about 300 cuft. With 160 cuft more gas (~13 lbs) of course the bat wing has more gas in it.

In any configuration the diver should select his gear so that his total ballast just offsets the buoyancy of his exposure suit with empty tanks. Total ballast is anything that does not float, i.e. harness, regs, lights, and negative tanks etc. If the total ballast exceeds the suit buoyancy *change* something. The answer to being overweighted is never a larger BC.

Tobin

 

[Dive-aholic]

Who said anything about "real man steel tanks"?? I dive AL80s when the dive calls for it. However, I'm more likely to dive my steel 60s because I like the buoyancy characteristics better than those of AL80s. This has nothing to do with manliness.

So, your statement indicates I should never dive LP108s because my crushed neoprene dry suit doesn't offset the total ballast of that configuration. Sure I could probably start diving a full thickness dry suit, but I'll lose that buoyancy at depth. Basically, your argument doesn't really work in real world diving conditions. And no, this isn't a testosterone argument. But sometimes the most minimalist gear configuration will still provide more ballast than can be offset by exposure protection. Obviously, from Steve's video, that is the case there otherwise he wouldn't need 45lbs of lift. If your last statement is true - The answer to being overweighted is never a larger BC. - then why did you build a larger BC for the Razor?? Divers should be changing something else, not the BC.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Full al 80's, rigged with a reg and stage kit aren't ~-2lbs, it's more like -4 lbs each.

Regs and stage kits will be on the steels just the same.

What is being misrepresented in the false "Can't dive real man steel tanks with a Razor" argument is any BC correctly used is used to offset the weight of the gas, not the cylinders. Air and Nitrox is going to remain ~.08 lbs per lbs regardless of whether it is in a steel tank or aluminum tank.

More total gas volume requires more lift. 6 al 80's is about 460 cu ft of gas, a pair of cave filled 108's is about 300 cuft. With 160 cuft more gas (~13 lbs) of course the bat wing has more gas in it.

In any configuration the diver should select his gear so that his total ballast just offsets the buoyancy of his exposure suit with empty tanks. Total ballast is anything that does not float, i.e. harness, regs, lights, and negative tanks etc. If the total ballast exceeds the suit buoyancy *change* something. The answer to being overweighted is never a larger BC.

Tobin

Not everyone subscribes to this... I'd rather carry less tanks, stay more streamlined, and have adaquate lift for the weight I'm carrying, gas, hardware, all of it. When I can carry two steels, that have the gas capacity of four AL80s, I'm going to be much happier swimming around, scootin, whatever.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Who said anything about "real man steel tanks"?? I dive AL80s when the dive calls for it. However, I'm more likely to dive my steel 60s because I like the buoyancy characteristics better than those of AL80s. This has nothing to do with manliness.

Do I need to point out such statements from other forums?

So, your statement indicates I should never dive LP108s because my crushed neoprene dry suit doesn't offset the total ballast of that configuration. Sure I could probably start diving a full thickness dry suit, but I'll lose that buoyancy at depth. Basically, your argument doesn't really work in real world diving conditions. And no, this isn't a testosterone argument. But sometimes the most minimalist gear configuration will still provide more ballast than can be offset by exposure protection. Obviously, from Steve's video, that is the case there otherwise he wouldn't need 45lbs of lift. If your last statement is true - The answer to being overweighted is never a larger BC. - then why did you build a larger BC for the Razor?? Divers should be changing something else, not the BC.

To suggest that we produced a larger Razor wing specifically to promote diving over weighted is flat out wrong.

Rob, you are better than that. Larger BC's used correctly allow divers to use more buoyant suits and carry more gas volume safely. Being over weighted is avoidable, and should be avoided.

You might consider speaking with Steve, *before* making blanket statements about his gear, or his weighting. He was diving the same config with a MSR bag previously............

Tobin

 

[cool_hardware52]

Regs and stage kits will be on the steels just the same.

Yes, but with fewer larger steels you have fewer regs and stage kits. That starts to offset the buoyancy difference between steels and al 80's.

Not everyone subscribes to this... I'd rather carry less tanks, stay more streamlined, and have adaquate lift for the weight I'm carrying, gas, hardware, all of it. When I can carry two steels, that have the gas capacity of four AL80s, I'm going to be much happier swimming around, scootin, whatever.

No doubt, but the it's still primarily the weight of the gas, not the tanks that dictate lift requirements.

Tobin

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

No doubt, but the it's still primarily the weight of the gas, not the tanks that dictate lift requirements.

Tobin

7 AL80s are about as negatively bouyant as a single LP 95, with a good fill(but a weak cave fill). 540cf vs 110cf-ish, so there's a little more than gas dictating lift requirements.

 

[cool_hardware52]

7 AL80s are about as negatively bouyant as a single LP 95, with a good fill(but a weak cave fill). 540cf vs 110cf-ish, so there's a little more than gas dictating lift requirements.

Either I've misunderstood your example, or you need to check your numbers.

7 rigged (stage kit and reg) full al 80's are 28 lbs negative (7 X ~4 lbs each)

A PST LP 95 is -3.3 lbs empty, and 110 cuft of air or nitrox will add about 9 lbs. That's about -12 lbs. Add a reg and stage kit and it's about - 14 lbs.

(Fabers are ~2 lbs Less negative)

14 does not = 28

Tobin

 

[Dive-aholic]

Do I need to point out such statements from other forums?

Go for it. I have made no such statements anywhere. If you interpreted anything I've posted that way, then you've misinterpreted my statement.

To suggest that we produced a larger Razor wing specifically to promote diving over weighted is flat out wrong.

Rob, you are better than that. Larger BC's used correctly allow divers to use more buoyant suits and carry more gas volume safely. Being over weighted is avoidable, and should be avoided.

You might consider speaking with Steve, *before* making blanket statements about his gear, or his weighting. He was diving the same config with a MSR bag previously............

Tobin

Tobin, I'm not suggesting that at all. I don't know how you can even imply that from my statement.

When I dive LP108s in my compressed neoprene dry suit with no additional weight, I am over weighted. How would you suggest I avoid being over weighted other than not diving LP108s? I will admit I rarely dive LP108s, but those are my trimix cylinders. My LP95s get too positive with more than 35% helium in them. I know because I tried it.

My statements are not about the amount of lift in the wing or the weighting of the rig. My statements are about the position of the wing and the high profile of the wing when it is inflated as in the video I posted of Steve. Others claim the Razor2 is the most streamlined sidemount rig on the market. My opinion, based on a video of Steve, is it is not the most streamlined in all configurations. Yes, it may be streamlined in AL80s, or even small steel cylinders, but the need to put air in it to counteract the weight of larger steels takes away this attribute. If the MSR bag provided enough lift then why did you produce the Bat wing? Obviously something wasn't right otherwise the MSR would still be the BC of choice for the Razor.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Either I've misunderstood your example, or you need to check your numbers.

7 rigged (stage kit and reg) full al 80's are 28 lbs negative (7 X ~4 lbs each)

A PST LP 95 is -3.3 lbs empty, and 110 cuft of air or nitrox will add about 9 lbs. That's about -12 lbs. Add a reg and stage kit and it's about - 14 lbs.

(Fabers are ~2 lbs Less negative)

14 does not = 28

Tobin

So we're talking about more than the weight of gas then aren't we

 

[cool_hardware52]

So we're talking about more than the weight of gas then aren't we

Apparently I am missing your point.

However 28 lbs is not equal to 14lbs.

Tobin