Non-technical dive-planning software?

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I thought that most agencies were moving toward 30 fpm for recreational ascents with a 15-20 ft SS. With the emergence of the "tiny bubble models", I believe that research has shown that 30 fpm is an optimum rate. Faster or slower is not as good. The book "Deco for Divers" has a good discussion in Chapter 6.

Myself, for any recreational dive over 60 ft, I'll do a deep stop at half of max. depth for a minute. Then proceed to the SS, staying at 30 fpm +/-.

Of course I'm talking non-emergency, non-mandatory deco ascent.

The PADI tables are quite clear on the ascent rate: 60 fpm. In my view, you need to keep both feet on one side of the river or the other. Pick a dive plan methodology that you believe in and stick with it. These 'ad hoc' half-depth safety stops are NOT part of the PADI RDP. They are probably a good thing but you are mixing strategies. Any diver can come up with any scheme they want. Some may even be good. The problem is, who are you going to dive with? Do they believe in the plan?

With me it's pretty simple. I'm using a computer. I have decided, reluctantly, to join the digital age. So, that's the plan. We both dive to the most conservative computer and call it a day. I would be much happier just doing the old square profiles with the PADI tables. I may get back to this approach as soon as I get a boat. Beach dives don't lend themselves to square profiles. OTOH, they are so shallow I could bring double 130s and still not overstay the NDL.

The choice of PADI tables comes about because in 1989 NAUI changed their tables to the extent that repetitive dives that were quite satisfactory with the 1987 version and are still satisfactory with the PADI version, no longer work.

Richard
 
Richard: When I took my initial training (2005) PADI's standard was 60 fpm below 60 fsw and 30 fpm above 60 fsw from what I recall.
 
Richard: When I took my initial training (2005) PADI's standard was 60 fpm below 60 fsw and 30 fpm above 60 fsw from what I recall.

That could very well be correct! I was trained by NAUI back in '88 and the only thing I have done with PADI is Nitrox and Equipment Specialist.

I am just looking on the back side of the PADI RDPs (Nitrox and Air) where, under "General Rules", it states "Ascend from all dives at a rate not to exceed 60ft per minute.".

So, if there is a difference between the training and the RDP, PADI ought to get it together. All I can do is use what I read. I imagine the tables have had extensive testing just like they are written. If PADI makes a decision to slow things a little more, it is probably with good intentions but without any real requirement. Otherwise, they would have changed the tables. NAUI did...

Richard
 
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Well, I got busy and it took me a few days to get around to reading the links about rock bottom calculations and whatnot. Thanks to everyone for all that information. I've abandoned the idea of using dive-planning software, but I did buy the eRDPml. I printed out the rock bottom table for the tanks I expect to use, and plasticized it for the boat, and copied the entire article onto my netbook computer for reference. The eRDPml will give me a general idea of how long I can plan on for the deeper portion of a multi-level dive, and the rock bottom table will give me my minimum pressures vs depth. I do use a computer, so that will give me my no-stop time.

PADI allows 60 fpm ascent rate, but says slower is okay. I'll be using the slower ascent, especially closer to the surface.

In a couple of days I leave for my next scuba trip (my second since I got certified). I'm looking forward to it and expect to have fun.
 
Richard: When I took my initial training (2005) PADI's standard was 60 fpm below 60 fsw and 30 fpm above 60 fsw from what I recall.

It is possible tht you were told that in your training, but that is not the PADI standard. It is still 60 feet per minute.

The reason is that when the table was created, that was the standard ascent rate pretty much everywhere. Since your dive time ends when you start your direct ascent to the surface, all the numbers for NDL's are based on the assumption that you will ascend at that rate. Switching to a different ascent rate will force a change in the actual numbers on the table, and that has not happened.

The reason is because as you ascend, your body tissues are getting rid of their nitrogen. Different tissues give it off at different rates. The bigger the difference in pressure between the nitrogen in the tissues and the nitrogen in the air you are breathing, the faster the nitrogen is given off. In theory, if the difference is too great, bubbles form. Different tissues approach that critical level at different rates as you ascend. If you ascend at the proper rate, they will get rid of enough nitrogen as you ascend taht they will never reach that level.

The people who created the RDP determined that at the appropriate ascent rate, no tissues will reach that critical level. Going slower would seem to be safer, but it may not be because while some tissues (fast tissues) are giving off nitrogen as you ascend, but some (slow tissues) are still taking it on, and they can reach that critical level later in the ascent.

You should know, though, that the tables were padded for safety when created, so you should be able to go at the 30 fpm rate that is now considered to be safer without any worries at all. (I can explain this further if you like--I don't want to take this too far here.)

All that is basic theory, but in the quarter century since the RDP was created, much has been learned. DAN studies have found that 30 fpm is better than 60 fpm, and both are better than 10 fpm. That same study found that safety stops were more important than the ascent rate. That is one reason why people are emphasizing them more today than they used to.

The dive planning software options mentioned earlier are all based on theories that are different from the ones upon which the RDP (or just about any other standard table) is based. These theories are based on the fact that there are already bubbles in the system, so we have to worry about the ones that are there already, not just the ones we might create.

There are actually quite a few different theories on what causes DCS and how it should be avoided. The truth is, though, that even though there is so much disagreement, history shows that if you follow any of these theories, you are extremely unlikely to suffer from DCS. Even though standard tables do not take into account existing bubbles, they have a proven track record of safety. Nobody can say for absolute certainty what is right or wrong, but we can point to a number of models that work anyway.
 
boulderjohn: Wow, that was a whole lot of stuff you typed out.

I typically don't follow PADI's maximum ascent rate. I also doubt that the RDP would need to be re-calculated if you used a 30 fsw / min ascent rate above 60 vs 60 above 60. Really all you're doing is giving yourself 1 minute extra getting to the surface. If anything that should be _safer_ than rocketing up at 60 fsw /min if you dived to the end of your NDL.

Personally on a square profile dive past 60 fsw I'd be more likely to do 1 minute stops starting at 1/2 depth & every 10 fsw afterwards with a final 3 min stop at 10 fsw. And a very slow ascent from there to the surface.

But don't tell PADI, k?
:popcorn:
 
I typically don't follow PADI's maximum ascent rate. I also doubt that the RDP would need to be re-calculated if you used a 30 fsw / min ascent rate above 60 vs 60 above 60. Really all you're doing is giving yourself 1 minute extra getting to the surface. If anything that should be _safer_ than rocketing up at 60 fsw /min if you dived to the end of your NDL.

Oh, I agree that it is plenty safe, and I advocate the 30 foot ascent rate for dives in general--I'm just saying that the numbers in the PADI RDP are based on 60 fpm. Those are the figures that all the scientific studies and peer reviews were based on, and they can't just change them. I in fact advocate an even slower rate for the last 15 feet of ascent.

Personally on a square profile dive past 60 fsw I'd be more likely to do 1 minute stops starting at 1/2 depth & every 10 fsw afterwards with a final 3 min stop at 10 fsw. And a very slow ascent from there to the surface.
I believe that's called minimum deco, a concept a number of people follow. I do believe, though, that the minimum deco theory assumes a one hour surface interval for all dives. Do you do that as well?
 
Personally on a square profile dive past 60 fsw I'd be more likely to do 1 minute stops starting at 1/2 depth & every 10 fsw afterwards with a final 3 min stop at 10 fsw. And a very slow ascent from there to the surface.

But it there any published document that says this is the way to dive? There are a lot of ad hoc strategies around but the tables predate them all and are known to be safe. At least for goats and snakes.

Every minute you stay at depth, you are still taking on nitrogen for those tissues that are still absorbing.

I almost hate to say this but when I started diving in '88, NAUI had the ascent rate at 60 fpm and safety stops were unheard of. NAUI gamed the system a little by specifying that the dive was over when the diver returned to the surface. Your ascent was part of the dive time. From their point of view, every minute underwater was adding nitrogen somewhere.

For whatever reason, in 1989 NAUI changed their collective minds and went to 30 fpm still with no stop. Dive time as before. They also dropped some pressure groups and changed the tables such that some repetitive dives that work with PADI tables no longer work with the NAUI tables.

Richard
 
... I in fact advocate an even slower rate for the last 15 feet of ascent.
May I ask what rate you advocate for that last 15 feet? I had an experienced diver tell me I was ascending too fast after the safety stop, although I am confident I was well within the PADI-recommended 60 ft/min, which was all I knew at the time.

Daniel
 

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