'Open Water' only sidemount BCDs: Your opinions?

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So, with that in mind, should someone who is interested in OW sidemount be able to purchase a BC with a top side option (be it inflator or OPV) or be forced to use a wing specific to cave diving because that's where sm started? Environment or origin specific. I think that is the question.

I'm not going cave diving. I like the balance and gas volume I can carry sm though (and it's fun). Should I route my inflator to suit my needs or to suit someone else. All my other rigs inflate from the top, all my buddies inflate from the top. In that regard they understand my rig. Who am I helping/hurting by routing differently.
 
I've been struggling with this inflator attachment position issue, especially since I've never dove side-mount so the hands-on practical side (e.g.: how easy it is to run the low pressure inflator hose from 1'rst stage to BCD) is something I can't grasp well.

Now, as to whether rec. side-mount divers should dive like usual despite a side-mount rig. (e.g.: descent & ascent horizontally, expecting to be able to dump air from the inflator, not a dump valve) as opposed to going up horizontally, that is a little easier to get. Concerns about a gear solution to a skills problem, if I understood right, are worrisome.

My perspective as a side-mount curious guy who's only dove BCD's, no BP/W:

1.) Descending & ascending vertically is often encouraged to aid orientation. I read somewhere it may aid equalizing by encouraging mucus to drain. It also lets you slowly fin your way up on ascent, which seems less practical if you're horizontal the whole way.

2.) In Bonaire, if I'm coming up aways from shore, I like to look around so a boat doesn't part my hair in a new way. Granted, that whiny 'moped' like racket is helpful for knowing one's around, but I like to look, too. I know you can look up to a point horizontally, but looking up & around sounds awkward.

3.) I would think companies make products for the mainstream customer, not the people they think those customers ought to be. Will a top-positioned air exhausting system better serve a large number of the type of divers who buy these things for ocean diving?

With all the threads over time criticizing the skill capability of many divers & the lax requirements of modern training, seems to me if the gear adds requirements (e.g.: a partial roll to vent air, or being horizontal), it could be more awkward for many who will use it.

Richard.
 
I've been struggling with this inflator attachment position issue, especially since I've never dove side-mount so the hands-on practical side (e.g.: how easy it is to run the low pressure inflator hose from 1'rst stage to BCD) is something I can't grasp well.

The issue of hose routing does need to be included in the equation. Top Mounted LPI exist because they are logically placed in relation to routing an LPI hose from a back-mounted tank/s. Sidemount tanks don't stow on the back (go figure...), they stow along the sides of the torso. Shock... horror.... that means the 1st stage is in a different location!

Sidemount systems accepted that reality... and amended the BCD lay-out to logically place the LPI for efficient hose routing.

Far too many people view the change in sidemount LPI location as being 'overhead environment' specific. I disagree. Yes, locating a hose from the bottom/inside of the wing does offer it more protection. But, it's also the logical place to locate it, based on cylinder/1st stage positioning.

Bottom-Mounted-Inflator.jpg
Bottom located LPI - showing direct and efficient LPI hose routing to the inflator.
No kinks or bends in the hose.
Hose reinforces LPI location - stiffness keeps it snug, secure and stops it moving around.

Top-Mounted-Inflator.jpg
Top Mounted LPI - showing convoluted and in-direct LPI hose routing to the inflator.
LPI needs to be bent through 180 degrees to match orientation of the inflator.
Hose stiffness tends to push LPI away from the body and/or move it around the chest area.

As an instructor, I've noticed that the biggest learning/comfort hurdle experienced by sidemount trainees isn't the location of the LPI... it is the task loading of dealing with all those clips, hoses etc. Top mounted LPI cause more of a hose 'tangle' around the torso and left-side d-ring... actively reducing comfort and ease.

I'm not tied to one particular sidemount rig - I've taught courses to students in BP&W conversions, OMS, Hollis SMS50 & SMS100, UTD Z and Razor sidemount rigs. What I've noticed is far more student comfort when diving a cleanly rigged, efficient and clean rig... which is heavily influenced by intelligent and economical hose routing. Thus, students with top-mounted LPIs struggle more...and have more frustrations... that those who arrive for training with bottom-mounted LPIs.

....the issue of dumping while horizontal, even if needing a small 'roll', they tend to master very quickly...

Add to that.. the issue of cylinder stability Cylinders hang nice and snug next to the diver when horizontal. They don't move around, swing about or otherwise screw with the divers' stable platform. Not so when vertical... you'll have those cylinders hanging low, bashing your thighs and knees, dragging hoses out of comfortable positions etc etc. Your 'stable platform' now becomes a teetering-tottering pillar of instability. At the end of the dive, that's even worse...especially in Ali tanks... where tank buoyancy is pulling the bottom of the tanks upwards, but your rig is trying to pull them downwards. It's a physical conflict... conflict breeds instability.

If taught, or encouraged, to dive that way... it'll be no wonder that the new 'generation' of recreational sidemount divers won't ever get to experience the real benefits and pleasure of diving that system.

Sidemount isn't hard, difficult, complex or 'tech', it is just different. To attain its benefits, you need to adopt a different approach... new skills, new concepts.

If you previously always played soccer and someone gives you a football... then you'll find it frustrating to kick the football around on the grass. It's different. Pick it up and play with it as it was meant to be used... and you'll find it intuitive, easy and joyful. Different needs different.


Now, as to whether rec. side-mount divers should dive like usual despite a side-mount rig. (e.g.: descent & ascent horizontally, expecting to be able to dump air from the inflator, not a dump valve) as opposed to going up horizontally, that is a little easier to get.

Should the aim to be making sidemount as similar to backmount, at the expense of performance?

Or should it be a simple acceptance that sidemount is different and requires new skills and procedures?

Yes... we know where this is going... because new "sidemount instructors" are spawning like spring rabbits and many of those receive exceptionally diluted training... which they further dilute in passing to their students. We cannot expect those individuals to have mastered the principles of horizontal trim, streamlining or an understanding of the finer points of hose management. The answer? Bastardize the system... throw in some familiar back-mount features and lower expectations of what should be taught/achieved in training.

The PADI sidemount course stresses the importance of horizontal trim...and applies standards to that effect. It's the first PADI recreational course to do so. However, those standards (less than 8 months old) are already degraded to a significant proportion. It (the course & standards) worked initially when the vast majority of new PADI sidemount course hailed from a technical diving background. Newer instructors don't... so, thus, don't have the necessary expertise to teach it properly as the standards dictate.

So what's the way the world learns to dive? They dumb it down... lower expectations, accept compromises to veil skill deficits..

1.) Descending & ascending vertically is often encouraged to aid orientation. I read somewhere it may aid equalizing by encouraging mucus to drain. It also lets you slowly fin your way up on ascent, which seems less practical if you're horizontal the whole way.

Situational awareness aids orientation. Enough said... :wink:

Horizontal ascent/descent is the 'norm' in technical diving. Don't those dives require more orientation and awareness?

Being horizontal is stated to improve off-gassing efficient (reduced pressure gradient across the body). IMHO, that trumps 'mucus drainage'. :)

2.) In Bonaire, if I'm coming up aways from shore, I like to look around so a boat doesn't part my hair in a new way. Granted, that whiny 'moped' like racket is helpful for knowing one's around, but I like to look, too. I know you can look up to a point horizontally, but looking up & around sounds awkward.

Do you need to be vertical from the bottom to the surface to check for boats? Or can you ascend horizontally (at least until safety stop?), before having a good look around and finishing your ascent?

I stay horizontal...at all times... until I reach ~1m shallow. Only then do I go vertical to breach the surface. On that final (5m/1min) ascent, I have plenty of time to scope my situational awareness and ensure no issues when reaching the surface. I can scoot through a helicopter turn to clock a 360 degree view. I can see above, below and around me. Doing so doesn't impact my buoyancy or ascent speed.

I'm pedantic with students about dropping into vertical trim. Really,... I'm going to buy a spanking switch... The reason is... it promotes the tendency or habitual reaction to drop out of horizontal trim whenever task-loaded or stressed. If that's what you do regularly, it's what you'll do when otherwise max'd out. I dive wrecks... so that tendency, if uncorrected, will lead to frequent silt-disturbances. On a coral reef, it leads to ecological damage.

You'd be surprised how inevitable that reaction is. Take a recreational diver, throw them a curve ball... and count the seconds before they become a bottom-churning rototiller.

3.) I would think companies make products for the mainstream customer, not the people they think those customers ought to be. Will a top-positioned air exhausting system better serve a large number of the type of divers who buy these things for ocean diving?

Companies make products that'll sell. They'll sell because they can be marketed. These 'Open Water' Sidemount rigs are a great example of that marketing. Marketing that plays upon the 'dark side' myth... making tech/cave approach to be something alien, complex and 'advanced' (whatever...).

Recreational divers aren't recognizing 'top-mounted LPI' as being preferable... they're being told that by a marketing department. What they're being told is very skewed, drawing upon carefully chosen attributes... whilst ignoring the rest of the reasons. They know a proportion of customers will always choose the 'quick-fix' option.... so they produce a scuba equivalent of "5 Minute Abs"... "no need to improve skill, no need to adopt new approaches...accept bad performance.... but call yourself a "sidemount diver" and get groovy in the trendy gear...because we've dumbed it down..."

With all the threads over time criticizing the skill capability of many divers & the lax requirements of modern training, seems to me if the gear adds requirements (e.g.: a partial roll to vent air, or being horizontal), it could be more awkward for many who will use it.

The answer to low "skill capacity" is to improve skill. What you're suggesting is to "remove the need to have skill". The most comprehensive way to do that is to give up scuba entirely, and just visit an aquarium..

Of course, the agencies love the "remove the need for skill" solution, don't they? :wink: As do the spring rabbit instructors... who don't have the skills themselves...
 
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As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words, so, let's look at that convoluted hose routing Devon is suggesting will occur with a top mounted LPI (considering this is a traditional BM wing DIY'd and not even a purpose built sm wing):

The tank pulled away to show how complicated it all is. Bent hoses and kinks everywhere. Threading this thing through such a maze was almost impossible (almost):

024_zps09d6f7ab.jpg

The absolute cluster F**k this creates. Oh the humanity!!!

014-1_zpsc7fc2379.jpg

The saddest thing about mainsteaming of sm by agencies is that instructors new to the game will feel that they are now the experts of the "official" way to do things. What makes sm so adaptable is that it allows the diver to think and adjust to their needs; not follow some sort of dogma.
 
The tank pulled away to show how complicated it all is. Bent hoses and kinks everywhere:

View attachment 147416

The absolute cluster F**k this creates. Oh the humanity!!!

Ok... accepted.

....Now... let me see you raise that above your head from a vertical position to dump!

It solves nothing. Does it not? Same drawbacks as a bottom-mounted LPI... just slightly more hose-related kurfuffle compared to a simple bottom-mounted LPI..

Obviously, dropping your tank lower for the photo does something to disguise the extent of the 180 kink needed in the hose. It'd ride far higher when th tank was bungeed...right? And you've also obviously had to route your LPI hose behind your harness to keep it out of the way... otherwise it rides out and causes that "absolute cluster...." right?? In doing so, your LPI can get trapped behind the harness, making it hard to doff/don the gear for a beginner? And then... we could mention how routing the LPI through the harness would impact your ability to dis-engage the cylinders and move them in front of you with complete flexibility and freedom?

I'm sure you can make it work "for you". What I've learned as an instructor is that a short-cut is rarely a short-cut. One 'convenient' choice leads to a trail of necessary compromises and adaptations...it's self-defeating. From my experience, what you've done with your LPI would be counter-intuitive and more frustrating for a new sidemount diver...

...not follow some sort of dogma.

I'm certainly far from dogmatic about SM. I spend hours each week research and trialing new approaches and concepts.

For the record, I'm not "against" top-mounted LPI... I'm just drawing attention to how that approach is being marketed/sold to unwary divers based on, what I believe, is a faulty and misleading premise. The end result of which is to promote the abandonment of a 'best practice' skill-based approach, in lieu of making sidemount more convenient to teach by sub-standard instructors.
 
No, it's just marketing a purpose built wing to the growing market of OW divers who want to SM. They have no need for a bottom situated LPI that solves nothing for them and only complicates gear familiarity among fellow OW divers. What's so misleading about a top located LPI anyways and what skills are being left out?

And I can lift that thing to dump vertical easily - but I don't. I haven't used my LPI to vent for a couple of years now. I jack knife on descent and ascend mainly horizontal till the safety stop. After that I just slowly fin up in a controled fashion. Very little air in that wing most times anyways.

Now, let me ask you one - How many dedicated cave bottom mounted LPI's can actually be inflated orally? I just tried mine (which is quite long by some standards) and it won't reach easily.
 
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Stop it. If you can't dump air in a horizontal position no matter where the LPI is located maybe you shouldn't be diving, let alone teaching sidemount. The OP is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Just cause the LPI isn't coming from the bottom up, which isn't standard sidemount by any means, does not mean the dive industry is going to hell in a hand bag. Get over it. You have your LPI coming from the bottom. You probably saw someone else do it and thought it was the greatest thing since slice bread. But, guess what, dumping air works just as well or sometimes better when it is in the "Standard" Position.

I'm tired of reading these elitis threads about how if you don't conform to some obscure "sidemount standard" you are promoting bad trim, or improper technique to the diving masses. The only reason why an LPI is routed from the bottom, Inside of a wing is to protect it. Talk to any backmount diver about proper trim while dumping air, and I'm sure they will look at you like "what are you talking about, willis?" when you say that only a lower position LPI will promote a "proper" trimmed out diver. This is directed towards the OP.
 
A very informative and thought provoking exchange for a SM diver in spe. :) What about the situation that was mentioned somewhere above - if a sidemount diver must ascend vertically in a crevice or a shaft that doesn't permit a horizontal trim? Will a bottom mounted LPI still work?
 
Ok name me another legitimate reason why we as sidemount diver might move it.

The argument can be made that you should have a top mounted Lpi and bottom dump. In a properly trimmed out sm diver air will be towards the bottom half of the diver, having a dump there is better. rather than on top where there should be less air promotes having to get out of trim to vent.

Having an LPI on top actually gives the diver more choices on how to dump air while keeping trim.
 

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