Opinions on "downgrading" sidemount regulators

[Valtman]

Hello all!

I've been diving Apeks DST/XTX50 regs for few years now and obviously they are really good. There's just few things I'm not really a fan of...
- They are a little heavy, negatively affects trim especially with stages.
- The inflator hoses coming from the 5th ports feel awkward, sometimes they hurt while on surface.
- I don't know how, but I've accidentally almost killed myself multiple times deploying an SMB and getting the line wrapped around the breathing adjustment knob.
- The over-balanced nature of the 1st stage means that the 2nd needs the adjustment knob, otherwise it will free-flow at depth. Happened at ~50 m...

Last summer I bought myself a second hand Mares Abyss MR22 for backmount and I truly love it's performance.
- Breaths even easier than Apeks.
- Regular 1:1 balanced means it should not free-flow at depth.
- No adjustments knobs on the 2nd stage, looks clean and less likely to get entangled.

At the moment I'm thinking I'd get a couple newer Mares MR12's and 90° LP adapters to act in behalf of the turrets. I know the reg has been out of production for a while but the in-line barrel design offers better placement for the SPG than most current (non-turret) diaphragm regs - from any manufacturer. Service kits should be available far in the future. I would get the CWD Dry kits and stay well above 100 meters at least for now.

What am I missing? Why this is not a good idea? What other regs should I be looking at? Ideally I wouldn't mix and match 1st and 2nd stages from different manufacturers, and I don't want to spend money on new shiny things if an old shiny thing is just as good.


Cheers!
Valtteri

 

[Mobulai]

I have similar pains with 5th port/LPIs on mk19s in SM, but I appreciate the turrets still.

I don’t really have answers for you, but I can recommend 2nd stages to pair with: mares VRs (hose from below, so comes from under the arm, also donatabale r/l side since they are symmetrical; I really enjoy it for the necklace reg.

Would love to hear why it might be a bad idea as well; but if the top of my head swivel 90s (depending on their count) might introduce lots of dynamic orings ie failure points
(Not that I’m religious about it, I personally use HP swivels for transmitter/spg combo —i know this is gonna start a fight)

 

[Valtman]

I have similar pains with 5th port/LPIs on mk19s in SM, but I appreciate the turrets still.

I don’t really have answers for you, but I can recommend 2nd stages to pair with: mares VRs (hose from below, so comes from under the arm, also donatabale r/l side since they are symmetrical; I really enjoy it for the necklace reg.

Would love to hear why it might be a bad idea as well; but if the top of my head swivel 90s (depending on their count) might introduce lots of dynamic orings ie failure points
(Not that I’m religious about it, I personally use HP swivels for transmitter/spg combo —i know this is gonna start a fight)

Hmm, the VR could be nice for stages but any old 2nd stage will do just as well. I will keep bottom gas hoses behind the neck, there's enough stuff in the chest area as is.

So the 90°s would be for the reg hoses, one each side. I'd either run a longer 30 - 40 cm inflator hose angled down a little bit so the 90° adapter would be straight to the side, or I could run the reg hose from the outer side of the 1st stage. SPG straight down. I hope this makes sense. Will propably experiment both ways.

I've never opened a swivel adapter but I'd assume there's two O-rings, user serviceable. A turret reg propably has the same amount or more failure points as a non-turret reg with an adapter. An adapter might fail first but is also easy to fix. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The problem with most diaphragm regs for this application is that the HP ports are angled to the sides and more often than not they would be the top most ports when orienting the reg "upside down" so that it's not sticking up from the valve. Who thought that this is a good idea even for backmount? Looking at my MR22 it would work really nicely with just a button SPG on the 45° HP port though... If only someone made a slightly larger, better resolution (range up to 250 bar rather than 400 bar) easier to read button SPG.

 

[Feye]

I have DST 1st - Abyss 2nd Sidemount set. Because of turret, I switched Abyss 1st to DST and works well now. Before changing to DST, I tried Omniswivel LP elbow(360 degree flexible) for mimicking turret but not so good because of SPG setting.

Anyway, my Abyss 1st is heavier than DST. DST-Abyss pairs are working well and simple IP/cracking setting by myself is enough.

 

[Valtman]

I have DST 1st - Abyss 2nd Sidemount set. Because of turret, I switched Abyss 1st to DST and works well now. Before changing to DST, I tried Omniswivel LP elbow(360 degree flexible) for mimicking turret but not so good because of SPG setting.

Anyway, my Abyss 1st is heavier than DST. DST-Abyss pairs are working well and simple IP/cracking setting by myself is enough.

Abyss is a 2nd stage which has been sold with different 1st stages over the years so I don't know which one you're talking about... My MR22 is the shaved down newer version which is about the same weight as DST, maybe a touch lighter in hand. My girlfriend has an older 22 which must be over one kg. I have my SPGs bungeed to the 1st stage anyway so I with the right hoses I think could make almost any reg work. Setup wise yes but they also need to perform from the surface down to let's say 100 meters.

You might run into problems if you go very deep. I don't know how well the Abyss can handle the over-balanced IP, the XTX50 can't handle it although they are made to be together. That's one regulator design I just can't understand. If the 2nd is set to almost free-flow on surface it most certainly will free-flow at depth. Or you can set it to breathe really nice at depth (which depth?) but then it's harder to breathe in shallow. Or you need to manually adjust the 2nd throughout the dive. I read that someone is diving Abyss MR22s because almost any other reg will free-flow at 150 meters, if they deliver any gas at all.

Can someone explain why would anyone want over-balancing in their regs?

 

[MSargeant]

Free flowing could be fixed by making sure it's tuned properly, or setting the adjustment lever to negative before swapping second stages.

Picked up some H-75p/Halos for a stupid price, clocked in noticeably lighter than my Apeks regs. I can also spin the turret a full 360 without catching the hose on the cylinder neck either.
HP port angled straight down the tank and positioned away from the reg hose nicely.
Granted these are piston regs.

What do you mean by them something hurting on the surface?

 

[Valtman]

Free flowing could be fixed by making sure it's tuned properly, or setting the adjustment lever to negative before swapping second stages.

Picked up some H-75p/Halos for a stupid price, clocked in noticeably lighter than my Apeks regs. I can also spin the turret a full 360 without catching the hose on the cylinder neck either.
HP port angled straight down the tank and positioned away from the reg hose nicely.
Granted these are piston regs.

What do you mean by them something hurting on the surface?

If you ask me the 2nd stage is tuned properly when it free-flows if you point the mouthpiece up in water. Or just almost does. I want my regs to breathe easy at any depth without fiddling around with the adjustments, and I want to get rid of the knob. Venturi lever can stay but the Abyss doesn't have that either. My free-flowing XTX50 was just serviced. One of them was harder to breathe from factory so I did ask to make them both breathe easy, and they did say they're now a touch out of spec. Still the Abyss breathes better. Haven't taken that too deep (single tank) but since it's not over-balanced it should not free-flow because of the balancing.

Yeah so the turret regs protrude against your body and the inflator hoses make it worse. On the surface (standing & walking on shore or boat), tanks clipped to the chest D's they roll around and it's not always the most comfortable thing. The hoses also kink alot. Same in water when playing around with the tanks. No major issues, this is the standard way after all, but if I swap the regs to something which don't protrude anywhere they should not be in my way, right? The MR12 would protrude more straight out the valve than DST but I think it shouldn't be a problem. I guess I'll try and report back my findings.

I have been looking at the Scubapros, the Halcyon looks to be a Mk25. If I was only after dropping weight I would go that route, only not spending stupid money. I'm looking at complete single tank regs for couple hundred euros, the MR12S 1st stage only should be less than a hundred. Swivel adapters, CWD Dry kits, hoses and all that on top sure, but I guess the total will be far from H prices.

 

[Mobulai]

I will keep bottom gas hoses behind the neck, there's enough stuff in the chest area as is.

Haven’t had to deal with stages in SM yet, I guess that’s very valid concern to keep chest area a bit decluttered

I've never opened a swivel adapter but I'd assume there's two O-rings, user serviceable. A turret reg propably has the same amount or more failure points as a non-turret reg with an adapter. An adapter might fail first but is also easy to fix. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Very true, a turret is mich less accessible in the field compared to a swivel 90, but also swivels get kinda treated like hoses not first stages (in my experience/perception) and get changed in the field
If either fail at depth none of that would matter anyway
I FEEL (not factual/depending on the user) that they are more prone to user introduced issues like over torquing (leading to deformed/ruptured o rings) or introduction of particles (uneven seating of o rings/leaking) since handling/servicing 1st stages has that “all clean” focused “mode”

2 turrets vs 2 swivels is a tough one to truly assess tbh, but your logic is on valid there

Of course, as I use as of now 4x Swivels, on turret 1st stages, I decided to take ALL the risk ; but if you’re careful enough when handling/opening them (swivels) risks cam be mitigated and avoided.

 

[Jens Bölte]

Hello,

A Mares regulator, at least the older models, have the advantage that they would not have any adjustment knobs and would offer equal breathing effort in all depths. However, the MR 22 has only one DFC port if I remember correctly, which offers low breathing effort. This restricts in part your setup-possibilities.

And yes, an Apeks might „free flow“ when tuned very lightly. I am not bothered by using the adjustment knob. But people differ. You could increase the cracking effort constantly by screwing in the adjustment screw, not the adjustment knob, by 1/8. You won´t notice the difference.

If I entangled the smb-line in the adjustment knob when diving sidemount, I would think about changing my deployment method instead of buying a new set of regs.

Do you mind to explain how the inflator hose „hurts“ you at the surface? Coming from the 5th port, the inflator hose runs „parallel“ to my chest.

Best wishes Jens

 

[Imla]

Why not just tune the apekses to where you want them?
Have used the lot of apekses from Tec3 to US4 to DSTs with the range of second stages on dives to 75 on open circuit and 100 as bail out regs on ccr. Calling this a depth issue is looking at the wrong problem.

Keep your DSMB out in front of you and it won't get entangled in your regs...