Opinions on whether LDS is being fair?

[opiniongirl]

I don't think it's fair.

What is fair, is requiring a make-up fee because a student slept in, was hung over, or had something else to do that day. In those cases, I used to bill $100 for my time, + gear costs, and outlined this in the student agreement, plus read it out loud at the beginning of class. As an instructor, it cost me money for no-shows.

But the instructor knew the day before that you were'nt going to dive, therefore the staff should not have billed for your remaining dives. There is no "rental fee" - that's a profit center, and costs the store nothing to give you for free. The $25 instructor fee - the first instructor should never have billed for your remaining dives in the first place, so that's bunk. General practice in my neck of the woods is to be as accomodating as possible, and it sure doesn't sound like they were caring about your ear problems (which were likely caused by diving).

It's a good policy, but not in your situation. Speak with the owner. Worst case scenario, it does sound like you suffered an ear injury from your earlier dives, so you can always bring that up to the owner, in which case I'm sure you will get more than attentive service thereafter.

I hate poor customer service, but perhaps the person you were dealing with just did not have the experience to tell what the policy was designed for.

 

[RonFrank]

Well...... I know that a shop *can* apply it's own terms and conditions within limits with a contract like you mentioned but I've never seen one. I guess if they made him sign such a contract then he's S.O.L......but why anyone would sign such a contract is totally beyond me.

David, is this what happened?

R..

that I check the "AGREE" box on every software product that I have ever purchased. There is no other option other than to find a different LDS, or in the case of software a different product which would require the same thing. I'm guessing MOST sign such aggrements, but do not bother actually reading them.

I DID discuss it BEFORE I signed with the owner as he was available. However contracts are there to protect the business, and if one has enough money to challange these types of contracts I would GUESS that the consumer would likely win.

As a professional photographer, I have run a small business, and unfortunately the LEGAL Stuff that we require the client to sign has to have clauses similar to the ones found in LDS's contracts in an attempt to protect the business.

Do I feel it's right that an LDS would charge $100 to complete a checkout dive based on the situation as presented, no I do not.

Based on how I've seen the LDS behave that I used, they do their best to work with the students. One guy in my OW class had stuff scheduled for Saturday evening, and the checkout dives were scheduled Sat and Sun. The LDS worked with him, and for a fee MUCH lower than private lessons he basically checked out with an instructor on a Friday/Sat morning. As the hotel charges $80 a night, and we check out at Blue Hole NM (6 hours driving) this ment the instructor had to book an extra night hotel. I think they charged him an extra $100, but he was 1 on 1 with the instructor, and IMO that was a great price considering the overhead the LDS incurred for the private training, and additional hotel expenses and day rate.

This is one reason that while I may not love my LDS retail prices, I use them for training, and have purchased a bit of gear from them. I have zero issue with paying the going rate for the valuable instruction, and the LDS that I use IMO is very customer friendly where it counts.

Ron

 

[Bubble Blower 479]

I would pay the $100 and make it clear that it would be the last time they would get my business. And I would be vocal about it to my friends. If they want to be hard nosed about it then I'll support another shop. This is what makes people want to buy equipment online.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Agreed!!

A student missing the second day for one reason or another happens all the time. I always let them join another group checkout free of charge.

I used to do it too and I lost my azz along with all my money.

In a class of 6 4 will inevitable require special scheduling for one reason or the other so I would end up diving (and traveling for three weekends to finish one class while new students (new money) was waiting in line not being taken care of.

I certainly agree with the instructor that the student with the hurt ears shouldn't have continued diving. Whether or not there are additional charges should be agreed on in advance because these things aren't all that uncommon.

I've had students with medical conditions that weren't discovered until they started diving, had troubles and I insisted they see a doc. Unfortunately I donated lots of time and money. The doc would treat the diver, clear them, and I'd go diving again...the student would have trouble, the doc would treat and clear them and I'd go diving again...you get the idea.

Of course sometimes instructors make these problems for themselves by not making sure that the student can control a decent well enough to avoid hurting their ears in the first place.

Whether a business charges enough up front to cover these changes in schedule or they charge extra when it happens doesn't really matter because in the end some one needs to pay for it other wise the business won't be there for long.

 

[outhole]

I used to do it too and I lost my azz along with all my money.
...

Whether a business charges enough up front to cover these changes in schedule or they charge extra when it happens doesn't really matter because in the end some one needs to pay for it other wise the business won't be there for long.

Sorry to hear about your azz and money. This was starting to sound like a country music song. You make a good point. Gotta feed the food chain. LDS need positive cash flow to remain financially solvent, PDI need protection, and divers must be aware of the costs of participating in this hazzardous sport. Reminds me of an old bumper sticker i saw in the '70s: Gas, grass, or azz... nobody rides for free.

 

[Diver0001]

I used to do it too and I lost my azz along with all my money.

In a class of 6 4 will inevitable require special scheduling for one reason or the other so I would end up diving (and traveling for three weekends to finish one class while new students (new money) was waiting in line not being taken care of.

I certainly agree with the instructor that the student with the hurt ears shouldn't have continued diving. Whether or not there are additional charges should be agreed on in advance because these things aren't all that uncommon.

I've had students with medical conditions that weren't discovered until they started diving, had troubles and I insisted they see a doc. Unfortunately I donated lots of time and money. The doc would treat the diver, clear them, and I'd go diving again...the student would have trouble, the doc would treat and clear them and I'd go diving again...you get the idea.

Of course sometimes instructors make these problems for themselves by not making sure that the student can control a decent well enough to avoid hurting their ears in the first place.

Whether a business charges enough up front to cover these changes in schedule or they charge extra when it happens doesn't really matter because in the end some one needs to pay for it other wise the business won't be there for long.

Are you saying that you agree with the shop's handling of this, Mike? I can see charging extra for extra training and/or extra flexibility but only if it's something that the student can control. What do you think?

R..

 

[simbrooks]

I would pay the $100 and make it clear that it would be the last time they would get my business. And I would be vocal about it to my friends. If they want to be hard nosed about it then I'll support another shop.

If you dont feel satisfied, just move on once you have got the card, or if really badly treated dont even finish with them and refer elsewhere, but of course that isnt as easy. In this case, eat the cost and walk, barter and hope they come down, maybe using the further training issue as leverage or dont pay, go elsewhere for referals would be your three main options. No harm in any of them, more work to be done for some than others - i think the shop might look at it differently if you mention either option where you dont do more training of gear buying from them

 

[FatCat]

... Worst case scenario, it does sound like you suffered an ear injury from your earlier dives, so you can always bring that up to the owner, in which case I'm sure you will get more than attentive service thereafter.
...

Eh? Am I missing something here? On which planet is the instructor/LDS to blame for a barotrauma to the ears? Has it been established that the instructor helped bring on the barotrauma by descending too fast or whatever? If indeed it was a barotrauma, which we don't know because the orginal poster hasn't provided us with that info.

Customer service is fine, postponing dives for medical reasons is inevitable, but don't go overboard with the whole customer service concept. Advising someone to use an injury for which no-one is to blame as leverage reeks of blackmail.

I'm not saying I agree with the LDS's attitude here, and objectively speaking - based on the only side of the story we've heard - in this case the customer is right.

Thing is: blackmail is just plain wrong...

 

[scubapro50]

lets look at it from the LDS view point ...... many times the LDS has to pay a fee to the owner of the lake or spring to take his checkout classes in their water. It can run anywhere from $5 a head to $25 per diver. Equipment rental is not included in the price for the checkout dive. You are expected to provide your own equipment by either purchasing it or renting it (or borrow a dive buddies gear for the weekend). If you figure up the fee for the dive and the all gear rental then $100 is about right.

 

[sharpenu]

Look at it from a money standpoint. The diver never made the dives for which the LDS was paid. They didn't have to pay an instructor for him to do the second day, because he didn't go. As long as it doesn't alter student/instructor ratio, it costs nothing to have an extra diver. If his LDS is anything like mine, the LDS doesn't even pay the asst instuctor, they work for free in exchange for free fills and free dives on the checkout.

People on here are always saying support your local LDS. Well, the opposite is also true, if your LDS doesn't support you, buy from online dealers. I would finish the OW course and then let the owner know you are doing business elsewhere and why.

If you are really mad, send them a copy of the receipt when you make major purchases online from other dealers. Let them know why you spent that cash elsewhere.