Outrage after inhospitality - no rooms for Cubans

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Ummm ... "....just following orders" and "European countries have heard that line before ..."
I think that this is quite a bit lower down on the scale then the life threatening years you are referring to

They are caught between a rock and a hard place .. not going to turn out well ether way they go .. boycotting them because of US law is going to change what? US law? Stick it to the big corporation? .. part of what's wrong with the US courts and the frivolous lawsuits and outrageous award amounts, is that very same "stick it to the big corporation" mentality held by so many here
 
Some people take discrimination seriously. It's not a question of sticking it to anyone. It's a question of offensive actions and subsequent reactions. An individual acting in the same way would also get a very hard time I would imagine.

Maybe you guys in the US should try to see it from another point of view occasionally. Well...hang on....there's actually many who do so I shouldn't generalize.

The point is they CHOSE to be caught between a rock and a hard place by going there. No one made them do it so personally I have no sympathy with them at all. If they'd done their research properly to begin with they could have realized the possibility of US laws putting them at odds with other countries. Many countries don't agree with many US laws - US companies who try to go to them and simply behave as if they were at home can expect people to react.
 
Kim,

I don't want to engage you in an argument here. However, I do feel that the Hilton Group are caught in the crossfire of a US foreign policy that is older than many members of this board, including myself. It's not as clear cut as you make it sound.

I'm sure the Hilton Group would love to take their money, and I'm sure they would love to avoid the negative press that they are (IMHO unfairly) getting. But they're stuck. I'm sure they had many meetings with their lawyers (both in the US and in Europe) before coming to this decision.

I know you absolutely hate Wikipedia, but perhaps you should read this part:

In 1999, U.S. President Bill Clinton expanded the trade embargo even further by ending the practice of foreign subsidiaries of U.S. companies trading with Cuba in dollar amounts totaling more than 700 million a year.

This is the part where Scandia-Hilton are in a bind. And these aren't just mere Cuban tourists on holiday in Norway; these are trade representatives of their country, and that crosses the line in the eyes of US foreign policy.

Here's the rest of the Wikipedia link on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_trade_embargo Again, I know you don't think highly of this source, but it is the easiest to find and quote, and if you can find a different, reliable source that says something different about this particular aspect of US foreign policy, I will be more than happy to look at it.

There is no easy answer to this, and it likely won't be settled even after it is heard in whatever high court rules on these things in the EU.

You say you don't have an axe to grind with Hilton, but your posts suggest that you would be more than happy to see them lose their shirts over this. It sounds like your real beef is with US foreign policy, or perhaps Americans in general, but for some reason you're taking it out on a local hotel chain, who employs locals, but that just happens to be American-owned.

As far as
suggesting that somehow natural disasters are the result of American lawmaking?
you apparently weren't paying close attention to the news editorials in the immediate aftermath of Katrina. Everything from failure to properly fund the US Corps of Engineers to the fact that we have yet to adopt Kyoto were all blamed for the mess that Katrina left.
 
Kim:
The point is they CHOSE to be caught between a rock and a hard place by going there. No one made them do it so personally I have no sympathy with them at all. If they'd done their research properly to begin with they could have realized the possibility of US laws putting them at odds with other countries. Many countries don't agree with many US laws - US companies who try to go to them and simply behave as if they were at home can expect people to react.

Well, so much for not having an axe to grind with Hilton. Your motivations are very clear with this post.

Again, going back to Katrina, I guess it's the fault of the people of New Orleans who chose to live below sea level, bounded almost on all sides by large bodies of water, protected by an ancient levee system that experts LONG WARNED would not stand up to a catastrophe like that. That's exactly how your thinking comes across.
 
Ron - As you already pointed out, Hilton isn't going to lose their shirts over one hotel. As I said earlier - I think they'll end up selling it - it's probably their easiest option.

Now, to your other points. You're right - there are many aspects of US foreign policy that I fundamentally disagree with. However, it's nothing to do with me so I have no say in the matter. That said - when I see something that I didn't agree with to start with lead to a rather predictable outcome it's hard not to think..."Told ya so.." That's human nature I suppose. For me, a company like Hilton is huge and probably has a LOT more say in who gets to make the laws in the US than the average Joe in the streets. Consequently I suppose I DO hold them more responsible, and therefore somewhere wish that something like this actually DOES sting them enough to adjust their actions...and where they put their support in the American system. Again...that's only human nature IMO - but maybe you should try being a non US citizen of planet Earth in the year 2007 sometime, and you MIGHT get an idea of what I'm on about.

It might not be fair that all things American...individuals...companies etc are judged against what their government does, and has done - and the laws and policies that are in place, but that's life, and on the outside it's really hard to do anything differently. America isn't a dictatorship. Presumably their people put the successive governments who passed the laws in place. Presumably the people end up responsible for what exists to that end, and if they wanted to change it they could....just as Hilton didn't have to buy the hotel to start with.

As for Katrina etc. Yes of course I know what was said about the levies, the lack of government response, the Kyoto accusations etc. I still don't think that natural disasters are comparable - even if they ARE possibly compounded by government policy.

By the way - on the subject of laws....It appears that the Norwegian police are investigating this. Presumably there is therefore a chance that Hilton has actually broken a Norwegian law. IF (I stress IF) that would be the case which law should take precedence? The US one? The Norwegian one? What would happen in the States in a similar situation?
 
RonDawg:
Well, so much for not having an axe to grind with Hilton. Your motivations are very clear with this post.

Again, going back to Katrina, I guess it's the fault of the people of New Orleans who chose to live below sea level, bounded almost on all sides by large bodies of water, protected by an ancient levee system that experts LONG WARNED would not stand up to a catastrophe like that. That's exactly how your thinking comes across.
Having no sympathy with them and having an axe to grind are very different things.

I still don't get why you seem to think that I would think that the people in New Orleans deserved it somehow? I would quicker think that they actually deserved a system that kept their levy system up to date and effective - much like they do in Holland for instance where I lived a couple of meters below sea level for about 28 years.
 
Kim:
Now, to your other points. You're right - there are many aspects of US foreign policy that I fundamentally disagree with.

Perhaps that's where the focus of this "boycott" should be...with the US Embassy in Norway, and not a private US-based company that is being forced to comply with its home laws even abroad.

For me, a company like Hilton is huge and probably has a LOT more say in who gets to make the laws in the US than the average Joe in the streets. Consequently I suppose I DO hold them more responsible, and therefore somewhere wish that something like this actually DOES sting them enough to adjust their actions...and where they put their support in the American system.

I'm sure the hotel industry has its own lobbyists in Washington. In fact, the word "lobby" in that sense also has its roots in the hotel industry according to urban legend: back in the 1800's, representatives of powerful interests would wait for their turn to visit the US President in the lobby of what is now the Willard Intercontinental Hotel near the White House, supposedly giving rise to the term "lobbyist."

MANY companies would love to see the embargo lifted, as it's just another untapped market. But if you read that Wikipedia article, you'll see there is strong political opposition to such a thing from both parties, fueled surprisingly by Cubans living here in the US. Again it's not as simple as you would like to believe.

but maybe you should try being a non US citizen of planet Earth in the year 2007 sometime, and you MIGHT get an idea of what I'm on about.

I may not be as well-travelled as you, but I do have my share of vacation photos from around the world.

I have police-officer friends in the UK (and have even done ridealongs with them) and have been there several times, eventually visiting all of Great Britain from Inverness south to Lands End.

I, along with my American-born Swiss friend, visited his relatives in Switzerland a couple of years back, taking in southern Germany and a bit of Austria and Leichtenstein (sp?) as well. On that same trip I also visited France on my own, specifically to see where D-Day happened shortly after the 60th Anniversary of that event.

I have also visited Australia twice where I have relatives on my mother's side. My most recent foreign visit was to New Zealand.

While in those lands I get to talk to the people, and if I can understand the language I try to read the local newspapers, listen to the radio, and watch local television. With the internet, I find it very easy to see "another perspective." I frequently look up articles on BBC Online as well as the A(ustralian)BC website.

You know what I came away with after all this? I'm even more grateful that my parents decided to immigrate to the US instead of somewhere else or staying in the home country. Though I could definitely live in Australia if I had to move out of the US for some reason :D

It might not be fair that all things American...individuals...companies etc are judged against what their government does, and has done - and the laws and policies that are in place, but that's life, and on the outside it's really hard to do anything differently. America isn't a dictatorship. Presumably their people put the successive governments who passed the laws in place. Presumably the people end up responsible for what exists to that end, and if they wanted to change it they could....just as Hilton didn't have to buy the hotel to start with.

We vote for whoever we think best fits our ideologies, and more importantly who will best ensure that we will continue to live at least as good a life, if not better. That's no different than any other democratic society.

Rather than try to make me live as a "non-US" citizen, try to perhaps look at things from an American's point of view sometime. Then maybe you'll see why, despite our shortcomings real or imagined, we still are the #1 destination for immigrants, and why people will even risk their lives (and that of their families) just for a chance to make it here.

Having no sympathy with them and having an axe to grind are very different things.

Your tone goes beyond no sympathy. It sounds like you really want them to fall flat on their faces with this one. I suspect there is also some deep-rooted resentment in a large American company buying up a local business. As if multinational companies aren't doing it in the US. Chrysler is now a German-owned company and I'm using a cell phone network owned by a German telecom.

I still don't get why you seem to think that I would think that the people in New Orleans deserved it somehow? I would quicker think that they actually deserved a system that kept their levy system up to date and effective - much like they do in Holland for instance where I lived a couple of meters below sea level for about 28 years.

I used that as an example of your own thinking: "If they had done the research and listened to other people..."
 
RonDawg:
I used that as an example of your own thinking: "If they had done the research and listened to other people..."
I expect a large international company to do a tad more research than individuals - especially when it might entail them (possibly) breaking local laws.

I can see that we're not going to see eye to eye on this one, but as much as you seem to find my attitude towards it suspect I have to admit that your apparant presumption in your first post that it would be the locals that would have to pay - not the US company that caused the situation to start with - probably set my teeth pretty much on edge! :wink:

I'm done.
 
Katrina's aftermath should not have been a surprise to anybody. It had long been warned, but those who did so were quickly dismissed as "Chicken Littles" until it happened for real. But that's for another thread.

Going back on topic, boycotts against large corporations rarely work. More often they affect "the hard working" person more than the "bigwigs" they are meant for.

Whenever fuel prices go up, it's popular for people in the US to start proposing boycotting gas stations on certain days. Again that has NEVER affected the price of oil and the politics behind it. All it's done is affect the poor gas station owner, with his profits already slim as they are, and the employees he's trying to keep employed.

Same thing happened when the Exxon Valdez ruined Prince William Sound in Alaska. It hurt the individual Exxon retailers more than Exxon itself. And that was a boycott where the parent company fully deserved it.

Imagine starting one when the company is "between a rock and a hard place" as is Scandia-Hilton.
 
First of all, this isn't ONE hotel, but a chain of hotels here in Scandinavia. One of the bigger ones, if not the biggest. Haven't bothered to check... And there's nothing in this case saying that Cuban tourists would be treated in any other way. Yes, the Cubans were trade representatives, and in the tourist business even. Since Norway and Norwegians still would like to have tourists visiting us, this kind of "hospitality" is not what we would like to be world famous for. In this case our sympathies lies with the Cubans.

The Hilton group actively choses to break Norwegian law (what they're doing simply isn't legal) in stead of the US law. And since we are on Norwegian ground I am somewhat offended by that, personally. When (and I do) I visit the US I go by US laws. When I do trade in the US, I go by US laws. The Scandic Hotels have been known for great service for years, and I have stayed with them many times, also after the Hilton take over. The name, "Scandic", will in itself place the hotels on the map in OUR region, and if they wish to stay that way (after Hilton), they have to respect national laws as well as Scandinavian values. What they'v done here is as far from it as they can come. So therefore the outspoken outrage in my country over this. Norwegians are quite politically and socially aware, so this is going to hurt the hotel chain. I wish Hilton would be braver than this, and if they would, they are welcome to run hotels in Norway.

Note: THIS post is my personal opinion, and the first post in this thread is just a referal to facts. Don't mix then up with each other, please. :blinking:
 
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