Overconfident OW divers

[dannobee]

Wait a second peeps. We did this for YEARS before we even had SPG's. And J valves weren't always the answer. You could continue to suck air (albeit more difficult) through the J valve, only to pull the lever and find the tank empty.

Now, would I trust a noob to plan a dive, then dive their plan, who took all of their training while using an SPG? Nope. Of course she may have noticed that her 'ole man used his air twice as fast as her, so she thought she was ok, but what if something like a free-flowing octo happened to use up most of her air? Certainly not something I'd do, and not something I'd be bragging about to another noob. She should have thumbed it.

 

[miketsp]

Wait a second peeps. We did this for YEARS before we even had SPG's. And J valves weren't always the answer. You could continue to suck air (albeit more difficult) through the J valve, only to pull the lever and find the tank empty.

Now, would I trust a noob to plan a dive, then dive their plan, who took all of their training while using an SPG? Nope. Of course she may have noticed that her 'ole man used his air twice as fast as her, so she thought she was ok, but what if something like a free-flowing octo happened to use up most of her air? Certainly not something I'd do, and not something I'd be bragging about to another noob. She should have thumbed it.

As was already pointed out, with old regs it was possible to tell when the tank pressure was dropping as breathing would get progressively harder. Some modern regs can give you optimum performance right up until the last good breath.

The other problem is how do you know what pressure you are starting the dive with?
More than once I've seen people setting up their gear at the pier, forgetting to close the valve and getting to the dive site with only half a tank remaining.

 

[mrobinson]

I was really angry for a while, but then I realized that I too have a little of the same self-confidence even though I am just beginning my diving. A part of this can be attributed to my zealousness for the sport and my desire to learn more, but just because we as new divers read scubaboard and have a few dives does not mean we shouldn't be aware of our lack of experience. I have begun to realize how little I know and how I need to be even more careful because of my enthusiasm. This got a little longwinded, but the point is to never get complacent or think that "it will never happen to you." Scott

Hey Scott! Thanks for the post. Okay, I think cutting this girl on the bus is beating a dead horse... Let's try on the second part of this.
Scott - I'm glad to see you're aware of the "scuba" ego... I hate to admit it but A) we all have it or B) have had our ego shot down a time or two until we get it.

I took me some time, but I finally figured out I'm a constant learner - but I'm guilty of teaching divers to be confident in what they're doing. I'm trying to find that happy medium of buliding confidence in a diver and explaining they still have a ton to learn about scuba. I think it's hard to explain the mentality of overconfidence to half the instructors I've worked with because they are also overconfident! (Remember I was too!)

I hope this second part can open up this dicussion - thanks again Scott.

 

[Woden]

Wait a second peeps. We did this for YEARS before we even had SPG's. And J valves weren't always the answer. You could continue to suck air (albeit more difficult) through the J valve, only to pull the lever and find the tank empty.

Now, would I trust a noob to plan a dive, then dive their plan, who took all of their training while using an SPG? Nope. Of course she may have noticed that her 'ole man used his air twice as fast as her, so she thought she was ok, but what if something like a free-flowing octo happened to use up most of her air? Certainly not something I'd do, and not something I'd be bragging about to another noob. She should have thumbed it.

I'm sitting here reading this thread and I'm dumbfounded. Not because some "noob" went diving without a working pressure guage but becuase I'm reading the comments of experienced divers who think it's OK to share dive computers and dive without an SPG because we used to use J-Valves and should know how much air we use. :icon10:

It's really very simple. Cars never used to have seat belts, airbags or crumple zones. Does that mean we should remove the seat belts, turn off the airbags and weld the crumple zones rigid?

I don't mind taking risks (SCUBA diving is a risk) but I'm not going to take a stupid risk when I have no need to. If your SPG is not working, get it fixed before you go diving. If you computer fails, dive on tables NOT your buddies computer (or call the dive if you don't have tables or a backup timer, depth guage etc).

Is one dive so important that you will take unecessary risks?

Whats worse if you do take unecessary risks, why tell the world about it on a message board and risk some other impressionable person following your lead. Why not just keep it to yourself?

I really don't mean this to insult anyone becuase I understand where you are comming from. I used to dive years ago with the old stuff (J-valves, horse collar, etc.). But we did it then because there was no alternative (and we didn't know any better).

Don't forget, years ago you used to hear about people running out of air and dying relatively often. I can't remember the last time I heard about an out-of-air that wasn't cause by something else (like an entanglement). Most of the accidents I hear of today are heart attacks, AGE, deco sickness, not OOA.

Even DAN will tell you that although the number of incidents has stayed the same over the last 10 years the number of divers has dramatically increased (thus the accident rate has fallen dramatically). The number one change attributed to this decrease in accidents is gear, not training.

Just my opinion...please don't beat me up too much :11:

 

[lamont]

I'm sitting here reading this thread and I'm dumbfounded. Not because some "noob" went diving without a working pressure guage but becuase I'm reading the comments of experienced divers who think it's OK to share dive computers and dive without an SPG because we used to use J-Valves and should know how much air we use.

What dumbfounds me are comments like it being 'suicide' and people not have any concept of how someone could possibly dive without an SPG. While I agree that diving without an SPG is stupid given that they're available, too many divers have no idea of what their gas consumption is without constantly referring to their SPG. Really any dive you do, you should be able to come up with a gas plan and you should be capable of diving it without having an SPG. You should also be double-checking your SPG with your depth timer in order to make sure your SPG hasn't stuck or otherwise broken on you (or that your isolator is closed, etc). A broken SPG definitely means thumbing the dive, but if a broken SPG completely cripples your ability to dive at all to the point where you can't function, you have a problem and you are overly reliant on the gear.

 

[dannobee]

I'm sitting here reading this thread and I'm dumbfounded. Not because some "noob" went diving without a working pressure guage but becuase I'm reading the comments of experienced divers who think it's OK to share dive computers and dive without an SPG because we used to use J-Valves and should know how much air we use. :icon10:

It's really very simple. Cars never used to have seat belts, airbags or crumple zones. Does that mean we should remove the seat belts, turn off the airbags and weld the crumple zones rigid?

Wow, so you're saying we shouldn't even DRIVE those old cars anymore?? Maybe I should sell some of my muscle cars, lest I hurt my self. Some people still dive with old equipment, ya know. :11:

What if YOUR SPG failed during the middle of YOUR dive, and the gauge stuck at, say, 2000psi. How long would it take you to realize? If you dive your plan, you may not know the *exact* pressure reading, but you can come pretty close, and only use the SPG to confirm. In this case, you'd be tapping on your SPG, wondering what's wrong with it, and not continuing to dive, blissfully thinking that you still have 2000 psi left in the tank. But as I said before, I wouldn't trust a newly certified diver to know this.

 

[Web Monkey]

close, and only use the SPG to confirm. In this case, you'd be tapping on your SPG, wondering what's wrong with it, and not continuing to dive, blissfully thinking that you still have 2000 psi left in the tank. But as I said before, I wouldn't trust a newly certified diver to know this.

I wouldn't trust *anybody* to do this.

If I found my SPG or computer saying anything bizzare, like it's been 2000 Lbs for the last 10 minutes, then it's time to call the dive.

I know that generally I get about an hour out of a tank, unless something bad happens. however bad things do happen, and this would be a particularly bad time to find out that you also had a drysuit inflator leak that's been venting out the exhaust for the last 1/2 hour.

Why trust your life to chance?

Terry

 

[Iruka]

Just a comment on the sharing of computers....I know the recommendation, of course, is never to share a computer (LDS will sell a lot more computers if people don't share, ha ha) but in reality, as a guide/DM/instructor, MOST of my divers are essentially sharing "my" computer. Quite often, with "couple time a year" tourist divers, they just follow the guide, and the guide usually has to be the one watching depth, air, etc. Back decades ago when I began diving in the midwest (USA), pretty much all the diving was done with a friend, and there weren't any guides available, so both (or at least one of the pair) had to be fairly competent. Now, in tourist locations (like Guam) there are divers who dive only on vacation, and not very often.....and they are, in some cases, COMPLETELY reliant on the guides for the dive planning & execution. Not an ideal situation, of course, but that's the way it is. Anyhow, for divers who don't have their own computer (or don't know what all those little tiny numbers MEAN, ha ha) the guide (generally) just dives with a large margin of error (as far as NDLs) and tries to keep the other divers above or even with him/her. Honestly, at the end of the dive, we usually have to tell the divers their maximum depth, bottom time, visibility, etc.

 

[Woden]

What dumbfounds me are comments like it being 'suicide' and people not have any concept of how someone could possibly dive without an SPG. While I agree that diving without an SPG is stupid given that they're available, too many divers have no idea of what their gas consumption is without constantly referring to their SPG. Really any dive you do, you should be able to come up with a gas plan and you should be capable of diving it without having an SPG. You should also be double-checking your SPG with your depth timer in order to make sure your SPG hasn't stuck or otherwise broken on you (or that your isolator is closed, etc). A broken SPG definitely means thumbing the dive, but if a broken SPG completely cripples your ability to dive at all to the point where you can't function, you have a problem and you are overly reliant on the gear.

I never said it was suicide if the first sentence is directed at me.
Aside from that I agree with everything you've just said. You have expressed my point quite well. To be explicit, I agree wholeheartedly that "you should be able to come up with a gas plan and you should be capable of diving it without having an SPG". What I was looking for is for someone to say "A broken SPG definitely means thumbing the dive".

Thanks

 

[The Kraken]

A broken SPG definitely means thumbing the dive.