OW Diver Manual, Is one agency's print material better than another?

[Jim Lapenta]

Yeah I am. The outline is down. Forward started. It tentatively titled "SCUBA: A Practical Guide to Advanced and Specialty Training". But right now with everything going on class, work, business, and my own training it is not on the front burner. The "Specialty" may get dropped if it turns out there is enough material to just focus on what is commonly known as Advanced Open Water. Which there may be.

 

[diver00014]

I will have to admit that PADI has some good materials production wise. SEI is way behind in some areas and I can speak to that as I am one of the people who reviews and helps write some of it. At the OW level however our text is IMO one of the best out there and it is not even produced by SEI. Our OW manual is Dennis Graver's Scuba Diving which is now in it's 4th edition. It was just updated in 2010 and it is one of the most comprehensive OW manuals.

Extensive discussion of snorkeling and skin diving skills, air consumption discussing SAC/RMV, rescue skills, tables, gas laws, etc.. What I appreciate the most is that it never talks down to the diver. It is simple and straightforward but there are some areas that may require a student to grab a dictionary or look something up. Or better yet ask the instructor during one of classroom sessions. And not one picture of someone on their knees.

As an SDI Instructor I have to say that while the SDI Manual is ok, it is a little bit light on content compared to Graver's and there are some pictures of people on their knees. But since I certify OW thru SEI and will issue an SDI card if someone wants one it's not an issue for me. Students are shown both and they even get a look at the PADI and NAUI manuals as I have those as well. I explain why I use Gravers and show them the differences.

WELL SAID. And as for the quote about PADI (Put Another Dollar IN ) being bigger then all the others combined, NO FRIGGIN WAY , That is far from accurate.

 

[Omisson]

WELL SAID. And as for the quote about PADI (Put Another Dollar IN ) being bigger then all the others combined, NO FRIGGIN WAY , That is far from accurate.

Not that I care one way or the other, but PADI is most definitely the largest by far -but it's hard to pin Down the exact numbers to establish the degree to which they overshadow the others because only the big four actually report hard data. The other 6 refuse to (wonder why?)....

According to the data that IS out there all other agencies combined do not hit the padi numbers over all- but it's fungible as to what that means for actual divers. Of course that is also no assurance of quality or frequency of the Divers... AND IT MAY NOT BE APPLES TO APPLES comparisons. But numbers are numbers... You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

As I said, While we don't have current stats across all agencies, because only NAUI, SSI, TDI and PADI are currently reporting them, the biggest issue is defining a diver, is it anyone certified? Certified and still diving? How often diving? Without that- the comparisons are skewed. So what is the baseline?

In 2002, four agencies – PADI, SSI, NAUI and SDI – agreed to share data. They reported certifying 177,000 new divers, PADI had roughly 68% of the certificationS, more than all the others, COMBINED. That's the only true apple to apple comparison. We don't know if these divers stayed divers. It does not seem any agency other than SDI/TDI has experienced any radical growth since then, and TDI growth is attributable to current divers exploring Tec or ERDI and specialties more so then a significant growth of "new" divers ... But again no one is showing the real numbers so much.

In 2013 PADI had 136,000+ paid memberships - so that's a hard number- folks who consider themselves divers enough to plunk down $$$ to stay affiliated and get their magazine. They also issued 936,000+ certifications, but that's a soft number, because it doesn't break out first time open water divers to differentiate from the guy who did 5 specialties that year. Unless the RSTC starts requiring this type of disclosure we may never know.

But I suppose we can examine what they have as spending/revenue streams to get an idea - that's a big spreadsheet though. Not a casual nights reading.






Dan-O

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[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I run a lot of PADI tech programs, diver and instructor certifications. The PADI Tec-Deep student and the Tec Trimix manuals are unparalleled in the industry.

 

[String]

The new padi ow manual is much cheaper in feel, paper and content

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[agesilaus]

It makes sense that the largest certifying agency would have the money to make a nicer manual.

I don't think I've heard from any SSI guys yet. What do y'all think of the current state of your manuals. I've heard some complaints about the older SSI manuals having a lot of errors has this been addressed in later editions or are they still using the same stuff?

I did OW with SSI and my wife did hers with PADI. Just from some brief looks at the PADI book I'd say they do a better job. SSI OW book is loaded with "product placement adverts" for SSI. They continuously push their advanced classes and many of the chapter end questions are just word for word copies of those adverts. It was quite irritating after awhile. PADI didn't seem to do that from my non-comprehensive look at their material.

I also got the feeling that the DVD, at least, was quite old. We were sure we recognized one of the people in some of the videos. She is a DM off one of the boats in the Keys. We went out on the boat she works on a few months before me taking the OW class. And the DM we met was considerably older than the one in the videos. I mentioned this to our instructor and he said "OH yeah, those videos are old.

I bought the NAUI Nitrox book since our instructor didn't provide one with the class but I haven't really read it yet.

BK

 

[Omisson]

The new padi ow manual is much cheaper in feel, paper and content

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Than? The old one? Other agencies?

This statement is much weaker in feel, content, meaning.....

<vbg>


Dan-O

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[diver00014]

Ok So be it. I am breaking my own rule about even reading threads that start out with, Whats the best fins, or whats the best BC or whats the best tires for my car or whats the best oil for my tractor, ect...ect... I never fails, every forum regardless of topic has to hash out this stuff. I have been all over the world traveling to SCUBA related destinations and have met people that have been certified by agencies I haven't even herd of.
A previous post claims of P.A.D.I and 6 others. Well I could be wrong but there are WAYYYYYYYYYYY more then 6 others. I personally know of a C card issued in 1959 to one of my closest friends and it wasent P.A.D.I I don't care to even worry about who is best but I will never believe that P.A.D.I has certified more people then( ALL) the others combined. I don't care what the Google numbers say. It's common sense that dictates otherwise.

I am a P.A.D.I instructor I am also an S.S.I instructor and an S.D.I. instructor I hold 14 specialty cards for P.A.D.I on top of my original C-Card. I felt at the time that if I was going to be teaching them I better have them myself.
Now as for numbers the figure of 936,000 Certifications came forth in another post. Ok then am I In the P.A.D.I book of stats as One or fifteen?. and for that matter I didn't even count Dive master, assistant instructor, Instructor and advanced instructor so I guess as far as numbers go I count for 19 of those 963 Gazillion numbers P.A.D.I is claiming. Ok great , so be it.

We all know it's a numbers game driven by the almighty dollar.

We will just have to agree to disagree about who has cashed the most checks.

When I was teaching for a Local shop the only way they could pay the rent was to jam stuff down peoples throats to make ends meet.

I had a hard time looking people in the eye and convincing them they needed a Spare Air, a Squeeking duck noise maker, a built in signal sausage, a built it air operated tank band a 7 mill suit, a hood, gloves( that no one lets you wear,) A giant BC with integrated weights bulging out in front, a weight belt just incase , a 7 mill pair of boots so your feet don't get cold, and some gimmick pair of fins that look cool in the magazine's .

It's no dam wonder when you take them to Cozumal on their first trip that their out of air in 15 min pushing all that crap through the water that they don't need, most of all the classic ( False sense of security Spare Air) LOl WOW I cant believe I ever did that to people. I regret it to this day and wish I could line up all the people we did that to , give them their money back and start over but its not going to happen. So if your out there Im sorry.

Too bad the whole industry is so driven by the almighty dollar that making good divers out of people has gone by the way of, SELL SELL SELL.

As for P.A.D.I being the almighty Messiah of the deep that everyone is Supposed to bow and pay homage to every time the acronym comes up in converstion, SORRY, NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!

 

[Subcooled]

This post contains strong personal opinions and feelings. These should not be considered as The truth but as A truth.

"Better"? What does that mean to you? I've no idea.

I have enjoyed NAUI manuals, suffered IANTD and been insulted by PADI materials. None had any serious errors. All felt very cheap. And then there's GUE. But you are not me.

When I look at the PADI manuals with all those big colourfull graphics, I can't avoid the feeling that they treat me like a child. My school books were similar on ... third grade? The theory itself is ok. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't like the looks of it. Some people may claim that PADI is more "pedagogic", so I guess that style may suit many, but I absolutely hate repetition and quizzes and hand-holding litterate people. This is yet another proof of people beeing different and that you'll need to pick a book that you like personally. Diving at recreational level is no rocket science. It is a skill. Just pick a book that feels good. They are all adequate. Unless you aim to become an explorer.

NAUI has a more mature approach in my opinion. More text. Also more substance. It's harder work to read it all of course. A highlighter pen may be needed. I loved every second. The NAUI rescue diver manual and master scuba diver manuals are superb in my opinion. And yes, it takes some time to read them. I also love the looks of scientific reports. You have been warned

IANTD? In their tecrec manual they talk about mental control, keeping calm, knowing yourself, not giving up. They use some strange words, but you have to look past all that. At some point I felt that on the next page they may foretell my future from a tea cup... but they DO have a point. It's not the equipment that fails but the mind. Many unnecessary deaths have occurred though, where people have panicked without reason. Unfortunately, IANTD does not quite succeed in explaining this as their manuals look so ridiculously old fashioned and home cooked.

GUE has some excellent books for those that seek the truth, and the only truth.

I guess this is a twist on the old "Which Agency" thread. And I'll start by saying I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm just curious. Which of the major agencies, PADI, SSI, NAUI, have the better training manual at the open water level. For those who have seen them, whose do you think has been kept the most up to date, whose is the most thorough, whose, if any, may still be useful to the owner some time after their initial training has passed?

I understand the basic skills taught at the OW level are essentially the same between agencies and that the course quality itself will depend greatly on the instructor; but I found myself looking at my old OW manual the other day and got to wondering, does any particular agency put more effort into their print materials than the others?

 

[Omisson]

Ok So be it. I am breaking my own rule about even reading threads that start out with, Whats the best fins, or whats the best BC or whats the best tires for my car or whats the best oil for my tractor, ect...ect... I never fails, every forum regardless of topic has to hash out this stuff. I have been all over the world traveling to SCUBA related destinations and have met people that have been certified by agencies I haven't even herd of.
A previous post claims of P.A.D.I and 6 others. Well I could be wrong but there are WAYYYYYYYYYYY more then 6 others. I personally know of a C card issued in 1959 to one of my closest friends and it wasent P.A.D.I I don't care to even worry about who is best but I will never believe that P.A.D.I has certified more people then( ALL) the others combined. I don't care what the Google numbers say. It's common sense that dictates otherwise.

I am a P.A.D.I instructor I am also an S.S.I instructor and an S.D.I. instructor I hold 14 specialty cards for P.A.D.I on top of my original C-Card. I felt at the time that if I was going to be teaching them I better have them myself.
Now as for numbers the figure of 936,000 Certifications came forth in another post. Ok then am I In the P.A.D.I book of stats as One or fifteen?. and for that matter I didn't even count Dive master, assistant instructor, Instructor and advanced instructor so I guess as far as numbers go I count for 19 of those 963 Gazillion numbers P.A.D.I is claiming. Ok great , so be it.

We all know it's a numbers game driven by the almighty dollar.

We will just have to agree to disagree about who has cashed the most checks.

When I was teaching for a Local shop the only way they could pay the rent was to jam stuff down peoples throats to make ends meet.

I had a hard time looking people in the eye and convincing them they needed a Spare Air, a Squeeking duck noise maker, a built in signal sausage, a built it air operated tank band a 7 mill suit, a hood, gloves( that no one lets you wear,) A giant BC with integrated weights bulging out in front, a weight belt just incase , a 7 mill pair of boots so your feet don't get cold, and some gimmick pair of fins that look cool in the magazine's .

It's no dam wonder when you take them to Cozumal on their first trip that their out of air in 15 min pushing all that crap through the water that they don't need, most of all the classic ( False sense of security Spare Air) LOl WOW I cant believe I ever did that to people. I regret it to this day and wish I could line up all the people we did that to , give them their money back and start over but its not going to happen. So if your out there Im sorry.

Too bad the whole industry is so driven by the almighty dollar that making good divers out of people has gone by the way of, SELL SELL SELL.

As for P.A.D.I being the almighty Messiah of the deep that everyone is Supposed to bow and pay homage to every time the acronym comes up in converstion, SORRY, NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!

All you are doing is PADI bashing...This post makes no sense... You start out by saying you don't get involved in "the best" threads- then launch into an Anti-PADI. tirade.

First, no one asked or implied PADI was "anything" - this part of the thread was about the quality of the books, particularly the open water and Tec books PRODUCED in the scuba industry at large.

Do YOU think the PADI books are bad? If so Then state WHY... But I think you'll be all alone if that's your opinion. Because the one thing PADI has done right is it's books- research, marketability, and proof reading. They are CLEARLY ahead of everyone. That may be because of money, smart folks running it, or MARKET SHARE... But anyone denying it has Zero credibility.

Second YOU stated that PADI was "no friggin way" the largest in scuba market share - YOU said it. So-Where's your proof? I cited what's out there- what data do you have that contradicts?

<long wait>

"Because I said so" doesn't cut it... You do realize that, right?

Third, there could be upwards of 150 agencies - but

a)how many are recognized, CMAS/WRTSC members,

b) have more than a few members Or

c) operate outside a tiny country (every town in Europe seems to have their own diving agency).

Point is almost every one of the smaller ones count their membership in the hundreds- the big four in the tens if not hundreds of thousands.

Oh yea, the big 4 (NAUI, PADI, SDI/TDI and SSI) and there are about 6 other prominent ones (can you count specialty agencies? NSS-CDS, NACD, IANTD- not if they are training POST open water because then they are already counted elsewhere). That's not opinion it's FACT.

If you can produce ANY proof to the contrary please do...

<second very long wait>

Didn't think so.

Now, as I pointed out earlier in my previous post, we know PADI inflates their numbers.

We all know that. But even if we assume EVERY person ever certified by PADI took OW, AOW, RES, MSD and DM and 10 specialties, for a total of 15 "certifications" PADI has issued 21 million certifications - that means they STILL certified AT LEAST 1.4 million DIFFERENT people - and while there are LOTS of duplications - 15 is an extreme number and DAN data suggests most divers do not progress beyond AOW so this estimation is way under representative of reality. The number is probably around 10million if we extrapolate the DAN rate of maximum AOW attainment.

Look, PADI isn't the best at lots of things- but to deny their books are good or that they aren't the largest share of the scuba market by far isn't a debatable opinion - it's DELUSIONAL NON REALITY.

Nobody denies the scuba industry (like every industry) is money driven... Should lessons be given away? Maybe like obamacare "we are all entitled to free scuba for life" because it's a fundamental right.

Point is no one in this thread said we need to bow down to PADI, ONLY YOU. you said it in constructing your flawed, inaccurate, straw man argument...

And now that argument is? Oh yea, debunked.


Dan-O

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