Pass or Fail ????

[TSandM]

This is a really pertinent question, because we are currently struggling with a personal friend who is taking his open water class, but has major anxiety issues.

After five years of assisting with classes, I have come to the conclusion that some people should not dive. It isn't clumsiness or slow learning . . . it's fear. People with a certain level of anxiety are very difficult to school into a state where they could calmly cope with a problem. ANYONE who still has the bolting instinct easily perceptible is at risk -- diving won't kill 99% of people who can remain calm and work the problem, but those who panic and bolt die.

I question the utility of the "I will work with you until you pass" approach, when the reason for the need for additional work is fear. Once those people, with significant additional help, finally squeak past their evaluations, are they really safe divers?

 

[Diver0001]

In education, we say that in traditional education, time is the standard and learning is the variable. In standards-based education, learning is the standard and time is the variable.

tldr;
performance based training. Wonderful idea. Saying yes to everything. Terrible idea.

Long version:

There are certain realities that I think you should take into consideration as an instructor that go beyond just looking at the standard.

The main one is the tension between time, money and learning. John put it perfectly by saying that in diving education, learning is the constant and time is the variable.

A lot of people who come into a diving course don't have this expectation, however, and where the rubber meets the road, you actually see a shift among many instructors/shops, BACK to a model where time is the constant (or nearly a constant) and learning is the variable.

Why does this happen?

I'll give you an example and walk through what happens.

What I tend to do within the limits I have at the shop where I'm on the staff (ie representing the business interests of the shop) is to make a frank appraisal after the first lesson as to whether or not the person is going to be able to learn what must be learned in the time we have been allocated. I don't only discuss this with the student but with the shop. Often times I will start trying to educate the student about performance based learning on day 1 and make them aware that in the time I have I can do only what they are capable of doing. As an instructor I put myself in the position of the intermediary to allow the student to talk to shop management about how much time they need and how much it's going to cost. I don't negotiate this myself on behalf of the shop. It's THEIR course and THEIR client. I'm just delivering it.

But ok. Say somone needs extra time. In some cases the shop will say "ok, give them an extra session" or "do some extra diving with them in OW" but the room to manoeuvre they have due to tight financial margins is limited. Likewise the student may say, "ok, i'll come for an extra lesson" or "ok, I'll pay for 2 extra dives in OW" but students are also limted in the room to manoeuvre in terms of the time they want to put into it and the amount of money they are prepared to pay.

So as an instructor, the theory that it's all perfomance based is wonderful and gives you a strong sense of direction in the process; however, this isn't public education. Real businesses are paying the instructor and real people are paying out of pocket for what they're getting. This leads to a reality in which many instructors are put in a position where BOTH the shop AND the student are telling them that they want the certification to take as little time and cost as little money as possible.

A great many instructors are not very good at managing this pressure and eventually start "reinterpreting" standards ... ie. looking for shortcuts or just ignoring what the standard says so they can make it fit in the time and budget available.

This is not so much that the standard is changing, as the OP suggested, but the delivery is changing to the point where it no longer conforms to the standard.

This problem is MASSIVE throughout the industry, from your home town dive shop to the big resorts. From the agency we are supposed to deliver performance based training but customers are normally on a fixed budget and timeframe.

It's not working.

let me say that again.

It's not working.

Results speak for themselves. Only instructors who are able to free themselves from the time and money problem are able to provide performance based learning as the agency designed it.

Ergo... getting back to where I started with this thread. If I see a student who I believe is going to have very significant problems following the course in something close to the time line I have available, I will advise them to seriously consider how badly they want to become a diver. I don't do this to discourage them, but to be realistic with them about expectations.

The shop hates me for this, but the only way as a shop instructor that I have any hope of delivering the required quality in the time I have available is to weed out students who clearly aren't going to make it as early in the process as I can.

That's not to say the student fails as in the case with the Rescue course, but to say... *I* as an instructor am not able to do what is required of me in this situation.

When your boss comes to you and asks you to do something in a time frame that you can't manage... what do you say? Yes?

Not me.

R..

 

[demed]

What a simple concept: to "weed out" those who "should not dive" - a revolutionary idea by people who have no better ideas and probably should not teach.

Scarcity of time and money are excuses. Lack of attitude is an excuse. Not suitable for diving is an excuse. Normally used when lacking the discipline and humility to try new approaches when the few old ones are failing.

Educators, instructors, teachers, leaders, succeed in the face of adversity and challenges by finding new paths.

 

[KeithG]

What a simple concept: to "weed out" those who "should not dive" - a revolutionary idea by people who have no better ideas and probably should not teach.

Scarcity of time and money are excuses. Lack of attitude is an excuse. Not suitable for diving is an excuse. Normally used when lacking the discipline and humility to try new approaches when the few old ones are failing.

Educators, instructors, teachers, leaders, succeed in the face of adversity and challenges by finding new paths.

Awesome concept! So do you think you can "teach me" into being a world class opera singer? No? Well how about a barely acceptable lounge lizard entertainer? No? Well how about you tell me that I have no singing talent and should even refrain from trying to hum along? If you picked #3 then you would be correct. No reflection upon your ability to teach. It is all about my ability to sing. I have none.

Every non-trivial endeavor requires a base level of skill. Even diving. Not everyone has the base level. Or the ability to attain it.

"Educators" who think otherwise are idiots. Not all people are equal. (Well, what about kings? All kings are equal!)

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

 

[armywife(ret.)]

Wow. Nearly speechless at that last remark. Totally unnecessary to cast aspersions at the large number of folks here on SB who are devoted to promoting a great sport - through education. Some of us do AND teach - well I might add.

 

[demed]

inability to sing should be the least of your worries

 

[TSandM]

You know, I think people who are terrified of horses rarely make good riders, and often get hurt. I think people who are terrified of diving are very hard to teach, and I seriously worry about how safe they are as divers. We know that panic kills. How ethical is it to certify someone whose baseline anxiety is high enough that they may well bolt when they face their first minor issue underwater?

To my knowledge, one person has died in the Ginnie Ballroom. If I remember the story correctly, she lost a weight pouch and ended up on the ceiling. This is not by any means even a dangerous situation -- the Ballroom is not big, and it's very easy to pull yourself to the opening, especially since the flow helps you. But she panicked and drowned.

I think instructors need to have a toolbox of tricks to reach students -- to educate them on the theory, and to make the skills understandable, and to help with technical issues. But I do not think a riding instructor or a diving instructor can change the student's underlying temperament, and I'm not entirely sure they should even always try.

We had one student totally freak out in the pool on night one. In talking to her, we learned that she had severe panic issues on land and was on multiple medications (none of which she had revealed on her medical statement). We didn't think she should come back, although we didn't tell her that -- but she made the determination on her own, and her husband went on to become a very competent OW diver. Demed, are you telling me that we should have persevered with her?

 

[demed]

You know, I think people who are terrified of horses rarely make good riders, and often get hurt. I think people who are terrified of diving are very hard to teach, and I seriously worry about how safe they are as divers. We know that panic kills. How ethical is it to certify someone whose baseline anxiety is high enough that they may well bolt when they face their first minor issue underwater?

To my knowledge, one person has died in the Ginnie Ballroom. If I remember the story correctly, she lost a weight pouch and ended up on the ceiling. This is not by any means even a dangerous situation -- the Ballroom is not big, and it's very easy to pull yourself to the opening, especially since the flow helps you. But she panicked and drowned.

I think instructors need to have a toolbox of tricks to reach students -- to educate them on the theory, and to make the skills understandable, and to help with technical issues. But I do not think a riding instructor or a diving instructor can change the student's underlying temperament, and I'm not entirely sure they should even always try.

We had one student totally freak out in the pool on night one. In talking to her, we learned that she had severe panic issues on land and was on multiple medications (none of which she had revealed on her medical statement). We didn't think she should come back, although we didn't tell her that -- but she made the determination on her own, and her husband went on to become a very competent OW diver. Demed, are you telling me that we should have persevered with her?

TSandM,
we know each other and see the world quite differently. A terrified rider who signs up for a riding class is in to overcome and conquer his\her fear(s), otherwise would not be there. I'm not terrified of riding, but i'm not interested and i never cared to pursue it, i would be a terrible student, but you could still turn me around if i signed up for it. I have had students terrified of water in their nose or weightlessness sign up for diving classes, and even if it took me a while, they were eager to learn and overcome and conquer their fears - and they did.
if people sign up for something they have marginal interest in we need to figure what's the motivation and help them build on that.
the issue is not to certify people whose anxiety is their bigger enemy, but rather work with them to achieve thei goal. the only problem students i have had were family members of avid divers dragged intpo diving when they had no interest in it. but my older kids had no interest in high school either, yet letting them to drop out was no palatable alternative. the approach is not that different. while having someone who is interested in conquering fears is much a better start, even those who are not interested can be turned around.
it's not really different from teaching kids with unprivileged backgrounds who have never found any reason to be interested in school.

Having said that, if you pull out of your bottomless cylinder hat the case of the student under heavy medication, then we are talking about something totally different - talking about normal cases, as long as your student *has* an interest in attempting to succeed, you have a canvas to work with and should work with.

 

[Diver0001]

What a simple concept: to "weed out" those who "should not dive" - a revolutionary idea by people who have no better ideas and probably should not teach.

Scarcity of time and money are excuses. Lack of attitude is an excuse. Not suitable for diving is an excuse. Normally used when lacking the discipline and humility to try new approaches when the few old ones are failing.

Educators, instructors, teachers, leaders, succeed in the face of adversity and challenges by finding new paths.

I suppose this was directed at me. Let me be clear.... I'm not able to teach everyone to dive within the limitations I have. Some people will need more time. If neither the shop nor the student are willing to finance that and put in the time, then I believe it is my *responsibility* to be honest and forthcoming to my student about what I think... and what I think sometimes means that I have to tell a student early on that they're going to have trouble learning to dive in the format they signed up for.

And believe me, nothing about this has to do with my willingness or commitment to learning how to teach more efficiently.

I see a lot of instructors around me who for one reason or another push ahead when they know in their hearts that it's a mission impossible to complete the course with that student in the time allocated. These instructors invariably produce students who, if they are not accidents waiting to happen, will often stop diving (or not even really start) because they are not confident or comfortable enough.

I'm not a superhero. I'm perfectly willing to refer them to someone who thinks they are, but I choose for myself, not to be that student's instructor. It's not fair to the student and it's not fair to me.

I'll give you an example. Last time this happened was a few months ago. I had a student who was absolutely terrified. His father was an instructor and had dragged him to the shop.... "here boy, learn how to dive". The student had a panic attack on the surface on day 1 and vomited from the stress before we even got in the pool. On the second day, he spent 90 minutes with me before I got him to submerge and breathe from the regulator in 150cm of water. I went to the shop owner and said, "sorry, but I can't train this kid". I also took his farther aside and told the father that I thought he was making a mistake and that he should try again in a couple of years.

Everyone irate. Shop irritated by me throwing in the towel, father irritated by the lack of progress, me irritated by the attitude of the shop and the father. The shop's owner said to me, "watch and learn" and decided to train the kid himself. He failed. The kid was handed off from one instructor to another over the course of the next few weeks. Taken to snorkeling class, added to a scuba ranger group..... until the child himself finally snapped and broke down.... where all of the adults in the room were worried about EVERYTHING other than what this student needed, HE, an 11 year old boy, showed them all what it means to take responsibility... and he quit.

I'm sure his father was furious at his kid for giving up. This young man may very well have been able to learn to dive in a couple of years but a group of irresponsible adults have conspired to traumatize him and now it will never happen. I, for one, am glad that at least I took MY responsibility by stating the obvious. What part of that makes me unfit to be a teacher? I don't know.

IMO the shop would have been much more professional to assess the situation once (get a second opinion if they didn't believe mine) and then decide based on that. But they have the same attitude that you do, which is that everyone has a right to be a diver and the instructor should just keep going no matter what.

You know what makes me nauseous? The number of instructors who push ahead without saying anything and end up certifying a student who clearly didn't learn how to dive because the instructor ran out of time. And as I said above, this problem is endemic in the industry. Instructors are trained to believe that performance based learning means everyone can become a diver. What happens in reality, however, is that many end up just hiding the truth, from their students, and from themselves.

So yeah, you may think this means I shouldn't be a teacher and I would say you're right. I shouldn't be a teacher if being one means that every peg, no matter what the shape, should be forced into the round hole you have to get it through. Some pegs can be made to be round and some cannot at least not in a reasonable amount of time. I suppose it's good that people like you are out there. After all, I need to refer some students to an instructor who will just sell them the cert.

R..

 

[Bred22]

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.[/QUOTE]

Anyone who has properly immersed themselves into any sport and participated at a high standard will have met countless people who are very capable of doing and absolutely hopeless at teaching. Yeah they might be able to score a job in education but this doesn't mean they will actually teach anyone anything. I'm not an instructor so don't think I'm trying big up my career but there are far more to many people that think of they can do they can also teach.

To do you don't need people skills something that is far herder to develop than any physical skill