Point-for-point on what's missing from OW Classes

[sheck33]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...


Detroit Diver, students don't have that time - at least not here in Southern California (And I wouldn't think in the Motor City either). They get a c-card - something they can hold in their hand. If you extend the course, increase the price, you lengthen the period in which modern interruptions can kill the potential for a student to complete this segment. 2 weeks is barely possible to escape the bullets of modern peoples personal and professional lives. You can't make it any longer. As it is we still have to offer 1 week courses every now and again. Students don't even realize how much harder they are making it on themselves to take a 1 week course. (To say nothing of the pain on the instructor!)

Doh - Mike Ferrara that's covered in the OW class materials dude! May I ask if any of your students ever take a take PPB class?

If people are not willing to invest the time to learn how to dive properly i suggest they take up golf. A lot safer for them and everyone around them. Jezus, why not just sell the card and forget about the class. Thank God most newly certifieds never dive again. This PPB class is just a way to get divers to pay more money, that information should be included in the OW class. But i guess PADI wants to accomodate the card collectors among us.

 

[jbd]

about the finning technique. I think one reason that there is not more emphasis on other techniques is that from what I can tell the diving skills to be taught are determined by ocean divers. Things would be different IMHO if inland divers were to have significant input into what the training standards should be.

I'm not bashing ocean divers nor elevating inland divers. Just pointing out that we inland divers face some different problems than our ocean diving bretheren consequently I think these issues need to be addressed.

 

[ScubaDan]

Mike wish I could have taken my class from you. Diverbuoy I was taught the way you teach and my trim and bouyancy suck.

 

[DiverBuoy]

Mike Ferrara You dropped 3 new items on us at one time. It makes for too random a discussion. Let's take one of them - fin technique.

The open water course says:

Confined Water Dive 1:

"Swimming Underwater - Demonstrate, in shallow water, the flutter kick and have students practice this. Stress proper leg/fin position and a slow, wide kick cycle. Allow students time to practice swimming underwater."

AND SAME SESSION LATER ...

"Time for fun and skill practice - Allow sufficient time for divers to ... practice skills"

Confined Water Dive 3:

"Neutral buoyancy swim - After students attain neutral buoyancy, have them swim underwater remaining neutrally buoyant ... Emphasize that they're swimming over a reef and that they must avoid contact with the pool bottom or sides. This helps develop both neutral buoyancy and awareness for the environment."

AND SAME SESSION LATER ...

"Fun and Practice - Plan sufficient time for practice..."

____
I find this is sufficient material for a beginner regarding finning technique. And they put this into practice even on the first OW dive (underwater exploration - tour). Under "Recommended Techniques for meeting performance requirements" under the Open Water Dive 1 section:

Underwater exploration. This is the heart of Open Water Dive 1. Although to the experienced diver it is "just swimming around," the novice is learning and assimilating a great deal, such as buoyancy control, body attitude, buddy contact, communication, breathing and dozens of other underwater capabilities that experienced divers find second nature...

Scubadan you weren't taught the way I teach, or your buoyancy and trim wouldn't suck. Your instructor obviously failed however.

My point is Mike Ferrara hasn't indicated anything here so far that PADI doesn't ask it's instructors to cover in OW. I want to see some real meat here - an item that has to be covered in OW - HAS TO BE COVERED FOR BEGINNERS - yet was left out of Open Water materials and otherwise is not mentioned.

 

[jbd]

the flutter kick I can agree with the slow and the proper leg and fin position.

I don't agree with the wide kick where the fot travels through something close to 4 or 5 feet of arc. I teach a much smaller arc to keep the legs from getting into the water flow as it passes over and under the body.

With the frog kicks you make the kick and can glide until you are either stopped or barely moving and the "re-chamber" the kick. Seems to me to be much less wasted energy.

 

[DiverBuoy]

.

 

[detroit diver]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
Mike Ferrara You dropped 3 new items on us at one time. It makes for too random a discussion. Let's take one of them - fin technique.

The open water course says:

Confined Water Dive 1:

"Swimming Underwater - Demonstrate, in shallow water, the flutter kick and have students practice this. Stress proper leg/fin position and a slow, wide kick cycle. Allow students time to practice swimming underwater."

AND SAME SESSION LATER ...

"Time for fun and skill practice - Allow sufficient time for divers to ... practice skills"

Confined Water Dive 3:

"Neutral buoyancy swim - After students attain neutral buoyancy, have them swim underwater remaining neutrally buoyant ... Emphasize that they're swimming over a reef and that they must avoid contact with the pool bottom or sides. This helps develop both neutral buoyancy and awareness for the environment."

AND SAME SESSION LATER ...

"Fun and Practice - Plan sufficient time for practice..."

____
I find this is sufficient material for a beginner regarding finning technique. And they put this into practice even on the first OW dive (underwater exploration - tour). Under "Recommended Techniques for meeting performance requirements" under the Open Water Dive 1 section:

Underwater exploration. This is the heart of Open Water Dive 1. Although to the experienced diver it is "just swimming around," the novice is learning and assimilating a great deal, such as buoyancy control, body attitude, buddy contact, communication, breathing and dozens of other underwater capabilities that experienced divers find second nature...

Scubadan you weren't taught the way I teach, or your buoyancy and trim wouldn't suck. Your instructor obviously failed however.

My point is Mike Ferrara hasn't indicated anything here so far that PADI doesn't ask it's instructors to cover in OW. I want to see some real meat here - an item that has to be covered in OW - HAS TO COVERED FOR BEGINNERS - yet was left out of Open Water, and otherwised not mentioned.

DB-

You're diggin yourself deeper in.

Confined 1- Why do they teach the flutter kick in the first place? It's the most inefficient kick out there. It may not silt up a reef, but come on up and I'll show you what it does to a quarry in about 1/2 an hour. Why don't you teach your student the frog kick? Ans-because you'd have to flunk out the total morons and that would mean a loss of PADI income. It's the MOST efficient kick and causes NO silting. The flutter kick ALWAYS causes silting.

Confined 3-Neutral bouyancy? From what-the fin pivot? Give me a break! Spend some time with your students teaching them to hover, and then tell me about neutral bouyancy.

What the heck are they supposed to "practice" if they're never taught the correct way in the first place? Yeh, they're having fun because they don't know the difference. Spend more time and teach them the difference. That's what an instuctor is for. You can't follow the PADI manual to the letter and expect to teach proper techniques. The instructor has to go FAR beyond that jokebook in order for the student to really learn how to dive.

 

[jbd]

what you have indicated is that PADI standards require only the flutter kick.

One of the areas that I think Mike is addressing is that the flutter kick is not the only kick there is and it is truly not a good kick to use in almost all inland dive sites.

The frog kick and its variations are much better for these sites and they can not be done with poor trim.

A diver crashing into the bottom of the ocean or a reef does not destroy the viz like a diver crashing into the bottom of a lake or quarry does. Excellent bouyancy control is pretty much mandatory in these locations.

 

[detroit diver]

As long as we're "clouding" the issue, I'm going to add one more item to Mike's list:

The Octopus

Please tell me why a more efficient method of air sharing is not taught? I'm speaking of donated primary reg, or at least a really long hose on a backup reg. Air sharing while plastered to your buddy while using an "octopus" is not pretty, nor is it efficient or, IMO, safe.

Let me venture a guess why it's not taught with a donated primary reg- that would require student to put in their mouth someone else's reg. Maybe some wouldn't want to do this, and might want to leave the class. Oops, that would cost money to PADI. Can't do that.

It boils down to a money issue. MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, AND MORE MONEY. Lot's of students graduated mean more MONEY. Specialty classes=more MONEY. Short, quick cheap classes mean more turnover=more MONEY. Lowest comon denominator equals more graduates=more MONEY.

And it's not the instructors getting the money. And I don't even think the shop owners are making money on this. It's the big starship PADI, NAUI, etc that are raking in the dough by putting out this mediocre set of standards that allow this stuff to be taught the way it is.

end of this portion of rant....

 

[DiverBuoy]

jbd - PADI teaches buoyancy, streamlining, proper weighting, proper breathing, breath control for fine tuning buoyancy, and efficient movement through varying conditions, as well as avoiding overexertion.

If all PADI taught in the Open Water course was the flutter kick, students would not be able to achieve any of the other objectives - now could they?

Additionally, PADI leaves room for local environmental modifications to the course. Clearly the silt concerns of a quarry qualifies as local environmental concerns.

detroit diver your comments are inflammatory in nature (PADI doesn't teach neutral buoyancy/proper techniques/their manual is a jokebook). I'm certainly not going to dignify these with a response.