Pony Bottle & octopus

[jtivat]

I'm afraid I have to call you on that one. If I remember correctly, I myself posited a reason for having an octo on your main tank if you are using a pony. Let me see if I can remember....Well, lookie there! I *did* come up with a reason!

If I'm out diving the Gulf on a two-tank dive, I don't have a way of refilling the pony for the second dive. I could transfill from my second tank, but that may not get enough air in the pony for the second dive's depth, and it would (obviously) consume a portion of my back gas. I find it quite reasonable to go to an alternate second stage air-sharing ascent when possible in order to conserve the redundancy for the second dive (which I'd certainly make if it were something as simple as, say, a yoke O-ring blowing at depth).

So you are saying the pony is used up and now worthless, fine put the second stage from the pony on your main tank first stage and go diving.

 

[DandyDon]

I have 2 second stages on my main reg, 1 on my pony. After the deeper first dive, I leave the pony on the boat while I do the shallow second dive.

Except for Cozumel. Got caught in a down current on the top of a wall once. :11: Carry the pony always there - if it's full. I don't want to be changing regs on the boat.

 

[Diveral]

I dive with an octopus on my primary reg, although I don't have a case of heartburn to remove it and dive my primary and pony with a single hose regulator each. So I usually dive with a single hose regulator on my pony, and a primary and octo on my main regulator. However I don't have a problem in removing my octo from my primary and diving it as a single hose. When I learned to scuba dive we wore a transpack and webbing, the tanks were steel 72's and I used a single hose reg with a J-valve. No SPG and no BC. Everyone was diving like this. So we have come a long way.

AL

 

[ClayJar]

But this is a reason of convenience, not safety. I'm thinking that getting in the second dive is not all that critical when the first dive ended with an OOA incident. But if it is, just bring an extra pony bottle.

Not all OOA incidents are the same. If a yoke face O-ring blows and we have to call the first dive short, that has very little, if anything, to do with the second dive. We're not going to be using the same tanks for the second dive, and our nitrogen loading is going to be lower than it would have been had the dive not been shortened. If a first stage went kaput, that'd call the day, but for a simple problem like an O-ring, we'd just do the same air sharing ascent we've practiced umtpeen and a half times.

Sharing air is a perfectly logical course of action for a gear failure at depth, and sharing back gas between two divers of an experienced buddy pair is hardly a big deal. With that in mind, preserving redundancy is hardly a pointless concept.

As for "just bring an extra pony bottle", you buy it, I'll bring it. I'll even use my own valve, just send the tank. If you don't have an extra one lying around, well, I guess I'll just have to settle for a tiny bit of planning and procedure.

Getting in a second dive is hardly critical. Both I and my usual buddy have called many a dive for reasons from being chilled to feeling slightly "off" to "I have a bad feeling about this". Neither of us would call a second dive just because we had to share air. O-rings blow, stuff happens, and all that is the reason we have a repair and replacement kit with us on the boat. If following our perfectly usual procedures for dealing with problems can preserve redundancy, that's certainly a reasonable pursuit, is it not?

So you are saying the pony is used up and now worthless, fine put the second stage from the pony on your main tank first stage and go diving.

And then if I need the pony, I'll just slap my fins together three times and bubble, "There's no gas like air. There's no gas like air." Then the Mermaid of Oz will show up, wave her magic tubeworm, and cause gills to appear on my neck for the ascent. Unfortunately, I don't believe in Her Deepness, and so, I choose to dive with my own redundant gas supply. To preserve that redundancy in the event of a simple gas failure at depth, when I dive a pony, I dive with an alternate second stage attached to my back gas.

Did you simply not comprehend what I wrote, or did you actively choose to ignore it? If the former, perhaps I should write it out better, as if I was unclear, that is for me to correct. If the latter, there'd be no point to my trying to explain better, but I certainly hope you're not like the "divemaster" helping my instructor with my NAUI MSD class.

 

[ReefHound]

Not all OOA incidents are the same. If a yoke face O-ring blows and we have to call the first dive short, that has very little, if anything, to do with the second dive. We're not going to be using the same tanks for the second dive, and our nitrogen loading is going to be lower than it would have been had the dive not been shortened. If a first stage went kaput, that'd call the day, but for a simple problem like an O-ring, we'd just do the same air sharing ascent we've practiced umtpeen and a half times.

I understand that but the point remains that you aren't compelled to do a second dive so the extra stage is a matter of convenience, not safety. That might be a good enough reason. If it matters to you, carry the extra second stage. I'm not telling anyone not to.

If the OOA is a minor deal and all is under control, buddy breathe the working primary. I know it's not taught anymore but it's pretty simple for skilled divers.

Scuba is an expensive sport, what can I say? I simply suggested an extra pony as one way to deal with it, and the extra pony covers other issues as well.

 

[Flatliner]

OK, here goes...

This is my newbie opinion.

1.) If I am using a pony bottle, it seems to me that I am ADDING safety by adding the additional 1st stage. I wouldn't dive a pony that wasn't big enough to get me OR my buddy (translate: son) to the surface. (Like the OP, I am NOT talking about tech or "near" tech situations. So I would NOT put an octo on my primary (mostly to reduce complexity)

2.) If on dive one, I use my pony due to a failure or OOA then DIVE 2 AINT HAPPENING! I mean no offence to those with bigger brass ones than me, but I have a crabby woman and 4 kids who EAT a lot who depend on me, I think I would need to pause and evaluate what went wrong.

Flatliner
aka Robert

 

[meesier42]

I disagree with Mike S here. Needing both your octo and your pony implies a double failure (what are the chances of your buddy running out of air and then you having a failure during your ascent or having a leak in your pony bad enough to empty it that no one notices and your buddy going OOA?).

A pony essentially gives you independent doubles. I can't think of anyone who advocates three or more second stages on backmounted doubles.

Now, I would suggest you sling it and not backmount it as it gives you easy access to the valve and the ability to hand it off; more flexibility all around. I'm not sure if you can sling a bottle that small but I'm sure someone would know.

I disagree with you on this, for recreational diving if you are reaching for a pony you have to assume you already have a double failure. Although one or both of the failures are probably not mechanical. I personnally starting going with the pony for the sole reason I couldn't trust my "rapid buddy" that I was getting on the boat.

As for how you carry it, I would recommend back mounting cause it keeps things out of the way and your not a tech diver trained to deal with lots of extra stuff. Also would recommend having the valve on before you hit the water, cause IF you need it it better be on. And place the second stage placed somewhere where you won't mistake it for your octo, ie. on you left side. Grabbing a dead regulator will kill you in a panic.

One last thing, with this extra gear that you'll be hauling around check your streamlining, keep your hoses tucked or retained somehow or you'll start wanting to use that extra air.

 

[dmmike]

I know this may sound cruel, but the air in my pony bottle is for ME. If you have a problem I will share the gas in my main bottle, I help you to the surface, I will do all I can, but I view my pony as my ticket home if all goes ***** to h*ll in a hand basket.

So I leave my alternate on my main set-up.

By-the-way, good topic, good thoughts..........

Thanks

 

[jtivat]

And then if I need the pony, I'll just slap my fins together three times and bubble, "There's no gas like air. There's no gas like air." Then the Mermaid of Oz will show up, wave her magic tubeworm, and cause gills to appear on my neck for the ascent. Unfortunately, I don't believe in Her Deepness, and so, I choose to dive with my own redundant gas supply. To preserve that redundancy in the event of a simple gas failure at depth, when I dive a pony, I dive with an alternate second stage attached to my back gas.

Did you simply not comprehend what I wrote, or did you actively choose to ignore it? If the former, perhaps I should write it out better, as if I was unclear, that is for me to correct. If the latter, there'd be no point to my trying to explain better, but I certainly hope you're not like the "divemaster" helping my instructor with my NAUI MSD class.

The original poster asked if it was necessary to have it and the answer is no there is no reason for safety to have it plain and simple. I guess you must have OOA on most your dives but I myself in real life have never had to share air. Do you have all those hoses on retractors also?

 

[divedadepths]

Could you leave your octo the way you normally carry it, and bungie the second stage for your pony to the tank, the way somebody would rig it for a stage, even no its mounted on your back??? So now you would have one in your mouth, one attached to your bc somewhere (your normal octo) and one bungied behind you.

Can anybody answer this please?? :huh: :huh: