Problem at Gilboa 4/21

[wb416]

If each had a spare air, would they've been saved?

IMHO, anyone diving ANYTHING other than doubles on the deep side of Gilboa is playing Russian Roulette with their life and the lives of their buddies. In this case, having a spare air is like bringing a water pistol to a 4-alarm fire.

You can put pony bottles in the same category as far as I'm concerned. Most folks don't practice their deployment and/or donation of a pony, so when the "going gets tough", things will snowball out of control in a heartbeat.

Save the false confidence these devices give you and stick with doubled cylinders for cold, dark, and deep situations.

 

[pengwe]

So what's the procedure for a free-flowing reg at 100'?

I've had them free flow on the surface, and you tap them, or turn them over in the water, and they stop. Is that going to work underwater?

Do you instantly start heading for the surface, while breathing off the reg? Turn your valve off (if you can reach it), and share with your buddy? You don't have a lot of time to collect your wits, and come up with a plan.

 

[scubapolly]

IMHO, anyone diving ANYTHING other than doubles on the deep side of Gilboa is playing Russian Roulette with their life and the lives of their buddies. In this case, having a spare air is like bringing a water pistol to a 4-alarm fire.

You can put pony bottles in the same category as far as I'm concerned. Most folks don't practice their deployment and/or donation of a pony, so when the "going gets tough", things will snowball out of control in a heartbeat.

Save the false confidence these devices give you and stick with doubled cylinders for cold, dark, and deep situations.

Agreed. With the possible exception of advanced classes doing their deep dive, using the platform as the bottom.

I doubt Spare Airs would be environmentally sealed, or designed for use in cold water.

 

[do it easy]

So what's the procedure for a free-flowing reg at 100'?

I think that you have to back up and ask "What are the requirements for diving in 100' of cold water?"

I think you would need a redundant gas supply. Bob mentioned doubles, but a tank of sufficient size would work too. Even better, it would be carried like a deco bottle so that the valve could be manipulated in the event that both regs freeze.

 

[wb416]

Some regs are more prone to free flows than others. On any given weekend at Gilboa you are likely to witness several free flows if you are paying attention but I've never had one of my zeagle or apeks free flow even at depths down to 300 ft in very cold water. I've never had one of our old sherwoods free flow either.

Last winter, I personally witnessed the free-flow of both of a diver's regs on the same dive. One was a Apeks TX-100 and I believe the other was the TX-50 model (on his backup reg). The buddy came through with a reg to get them to the surface... this wasn't a drill.

In a more recent incident, a diver in Ontario (Rockport region) had a free-flow with an Apeks reg also while ice diving. Unfortunately, that situation didn't end well, and they weren't novices either.

I don't want there to be the impression that high quality Apeks are bullet-proof, even though they are high-end regs and enviro-sealed.

What works on one dive doesn't guarantee to work flawless on another under identical conditions.

 

[wb416]

Even better, it would be carried like a deco bottle so that the valve could be manipulated in the event that both regs freeze.

Most people can't deploy a stage fast enough, so this will just make a bad situation worse.

 

[scubapolly]

Nope- remember that the HP hose has a tiny orifice so it is high pressure and low flow.

Thanks Tony. Momentary brain fart

 

[do it easy]

You can put pony bottles in the same category as far as I'm concerned. Most folks don't practice their deployment and/or donation of a pony, so when the "going gets tough", things will snowball out of control in a heartbeat.

Save the false confidence these devices give you and stick with doubled cylinders for cold, dark, and deep situations.

Regardless of doubles or a slung tank, the diver still has to practice with either to be able and comfortable to properly manage the free flow.

I did a cold dive this winter where my buddy and I each had doubles and a stage bottle for triple redundancy.

 

[deepstops]

Are those switched?

No, a failed HP hose was 22 minutes to empty every time (give or take a minute).

 

[MikeFerrara]

So what's the procedure for a free-flowing reg at 100'?

I've had them free flow on the surface, and you tap them, or turn them over in the water, and they stop. Is that going to work underwater?

When that happens at the surface the reg isn't usually frozen (though if it's cold the free flow may cause it to freeze). Usually it's just due to the venturi design that many regs employ. Once you get it flowing, the shape of the reg causes a pressure drop that helps keep the valve open. Applying some back pressure...putting it mouth piece down in the water, placing your hand over the mouthpiece or even just shoving the thing in your mouth will stop the flow.

An alternate that isn't in your mouth (especially if the mouth piece is facing up ) can do the same thing under water if the purge gets bumped. If you catch it before anything freezes you can stop it the same way.

It's a different matter when the reg freezes because applying back pressure isn't going to stop it. You can breath off of it though. PRACTICE this mid water. All those bubble can be a pain to maneage and if they are hitting you they tend to drive you up...in any case it takes practice for most people to do a good job of handling it midwater.

Some agencies don't teach it at all and those that do usually only have students do it while kneeling on the bottom of a pool., This is MEANINGLESS and all those who don't learn this are being set up for a REAL BAD TIME because lots of people get hurt by free flows.

You can also switch to another air source although I wouldn't go to an alternate that's connected to the same first stage. If you have a redundant air supply, the free flowing reg will often thaw out after being shut down for a little while. The surrounding water that's is above freezing will thaw it out.

Do you instantly start heading for the surface, while breathing off the reg? Turn your valve off (if you can reach it), and share with your buddy? You don't have a lot of time to collect your wits, and come up with a plan.

On a no stop recreational dive, yes, I would start for the surface as soon as things are under control. Surface while breathing off the free flow or a buddies alternate or whatever.

Again, the thing is that you need to be able to control your buoyancy while doing it and that's where the problems usually come in. This and other emergency procedures need to be practiced to the point that it's second nature or it just isn't going to work for you when it's real.

It goes without saying that there isn't any substitute for a large gas supply and real redundancy on a deep dive so I agree with Bob on thos one 100%.