Professional liability when diving with friends

[SM Diver]

NetDoc once bubbled...

is arguably the BEST advice anyone has given on this board!!! Thanks!

Huh? The issue of the thread is liability, and he's evidently a lawyer. Who's acting like something they're not?

This pretty much sums it up: http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/U...oImages/Non Sequitur - internet arguments.gif

 

[XtremeSea1]

There's a lot of good points made in this thread but the biggest issue here is whether or not this should even be of concern. I firmly believe the answer is NO. A dive leader is in far more danger of being involved in a traffic accident on his way to the dive site than being party to a diving accident. This is not to say that we shouldn't have plan and that plan should NOT include misrepresenting your credentials. ALL divers, especially dive leaders, have a moral and ethical responsibility to aid and assist other divers when reasonably safe to do so. Too often we are caught up in the "I don't want to be sued" syndrome.

Let's face facts...many things in life are dangerous. Far more dangerous than diving, yet we assume those risks in the pursuit of happiness. Far too often, DM's are just out for the title. They want that title, but not the responsibility that goes with it. This is clearly evident by the number of DM's that lack insurance (sure, there are some legitimate cases of insurance not being necessary). Sadly, the retail side of diving is largely to blame. Too many stores accept candidates simply because they have the money to obtain the certification, with little to no concern for the candidates motivation to become a Dive Leader. While this may be good “short-term” business, it’s very poor “long-term” business. Simply put, a DM candidate is a “cash cow” for the store. When you add up the cost of prerequisite certifications and possible gear sales…any DM candidate is good for the store’s bottom line, yet it is rare to hear a store operator ask “Is this candidate good for the industry?”

On the flip side, to add insult to injury…most of you would be shocked by how many DM’s do NOT get paid for their services. Many stores expect them to work for free. What kind of attitude would you expect of a DM that spent possibly several thousand dollars to achieve a certification, which benefits the industry, to find out that you can’t earn any money doing it? (off soap box)

 

[The Chairman]

Whether it was germaine to the thread at hand, I find that one comment to be just awesome.

I would be so bold as to say that MOST diving accidents occur when someone tries to pretend they are something they are not. Then it's the loved ones who are left behind who are stuck with assigning blame. So if I take out some schlepp who thinks he can dive the Doria with one hand tied behind his back and he just doesn't make it back alive because of his arrogance... who do you think the loved ones will accuse???

As a diver or instructor, I am not privy to every single thought a diver may have. I do not know if they got all the sleep they needed last night, if they are taking an illegal substance, or abusing a legal one. I can't open their psyche like a book and figure out that today they just feel invinsible... like they can forget safety, " 'cause nuthin's goin to happen anyways!"

Or how about the time I shared a boat with another instructor, only to find out he really wasn't one. His AOW students were even more surprised! Well, if he ain't an instructor and these clowns get hurt, who are they going to sue? Me? I gots insurance. I make a prime target for those looking to "assign blame".

Sure we are talking about friends in this thread, but many are only friends when it suits them. Make arrangements formal... keep the atmosphere of professionalism and safety first. While you might have more paperwork to deal with for a "fun" dive, I think you will find that you will have peace while under the suds.

 

[SM Diver]

Pete,

The cartoon is funny though, isn't it?

Scott

P.S.: I wouldn't be quite so worried about liability if you behave prudently. Sure, have the waiver signed if it makes you feel more comfortable. Personally, I have never had any one sign a waiver on my boat, and we do higher risk diving than most. To each his own.

As for my remark, I just didn't understand the context of what you said. You directed it a lawman, so it did not have the appearance of just a general observation.

 

[The Chairman]

and I hope that I 'splained myself completely... :tease:

 

[Northeastwrecks]

XtremeSea1 once bubbled...
There's a lot of good points made in this thread but the biggest issue here is whether or not this should even be of concern. I firmly believe the answer is NO. A dive leader is in far more danger of being involved in a traffic accident on his way to the dive site than being party to a diving accident. This is not to say that we shouldn't have plan and that plan should NOT include misrepresenting your credentials. ALL divers, especially dive leaders, have a moral and ethical responsibility to aid and assist other divers when reasonably safe to do so. Too often we are caught up in the "I don't want to be sued" syndrome.

Let's face facts...many things in life are dangerous. Far more dangerous than diving, yet we assume those risks in the pursuit of happiness. Far too often, DM's are just out for the title. They want that title, but not the responsibility that goes with it. This is clearly evident by the number of DM's that lack insurance (sure, there are some legitimate cases of insurance not being necessary). Sadly, the retail side of diving is largely to blame. Too many stores accept candidates simply because they have the money to obtain the certification, with little to no concern for the candidates motivation to become a Dive Leader. While this may be good “short-term” business, it’s very poor “long-term” business. Simply put, a DM candidate is a “cash cow” for the store. When you add up the cost of prerequisite certifications and possible gear sales…any DM candidate is good for the store’s bottom line, yet it is rare to hear a store operator ask “Is this candidate good for the industry?”

On the flip side, to add insult to injury…most of you would be shocked by how many DM’s do NOT get paid for their services. Many stores expect them to work for free. What kind of attitude would you expect of a DM that spent possibly several thousand dollars to achieve a certification, which benefits the industry, to find out that you can’t earn any money doing it? (off soap box)

Believe me, I'm well aware of the fact that DM's don't get paid. About the only financial benefit I expect to receive is the opportunity to depreciate my gear on my taxes. Even that is limited (and totally off-topic).

I have no problem acting as a dive leader and will do everything in my power to bring someone back. That is the reason I took the course in the first place.

The consensus seems to be that that acting like a dive leader will lead to the imposition of a dive leader's duties. If I'm going to be held to those higher standards, then I'm going to follow the procedures that are required in order to be protected. That means that when I organize the dive, I'll follow the same procedures that I use when I handle local charter dives with people who actually expect me to be a DM.

There are circumstances when I won't admit to being anything more than an AOW diver. For example, I've seen Carribean operators pair experienced divers with newbies in order to take the load off of the boat's paid DM. I'm not willing to do that under any circumstances that don't involve comping me for the dive and coming across with some other free stuff.

 

[Lawman]

I would like it if all of you instructors and DMs would quit worrying about lawsuits. Thats why you buy insurance. Just relax and teach your students, act reasonably prudently. and enjoy a great job. If a lawsuit happens, the insurance company will send someone like me into handle it. I've handled hundreds of them.
You teach me diving and I'll take care of the lawsuits for you.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Cool. I will send you an indemnification agreement.

I agree that insurance will provide a defense and cover the loss up to the policy limit.

My question, however, was not really about the clear cut situation in which I am serving as a DM on a charter or trip or when I'm working with students.

I'm more interested in how coverage issues are handled when a DM dives with friends. Its too late to deny that I'm a DM as they already know it. Besides, I'm not sure I'd want to mislead my friends.

 

[Lawman]

:bonk:

It's the same as diving with strangers. If you're acting like the divemaster than you ARE the divemaster. Just be a reasonably prudent one. Don't plan the dive, buddy the people up, give the briefing and then drink a pint of vodka. The other divers are entitled to act in reliance on your actions, and that includes friends.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

That's what I thought. Guess I'll need to stop using vodka in my hydrator (Oh, year, its not DIR).

Seriously, thanks to all who contributed. I appreciate it.