re: air intergrated dive computers

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You have a lot of variables in your last post. If you have enough gas left for 13 minutes of BREATHING at that depth, but you are at your NDL in 2 minutes, you should ascend. IF you do not, at your current rate of consumption you can stay for 13 minutes and then be OOA.

True.


In answer to your second question, 'Is there a problem?' Again too many variables are not accounted for such as prior dives, work load, temp, etc. If the computer is factoring these variables and says you are at your NDL in 2 minutes....there is no problem.

False.

Firstly, let's get some of those variables out of the way:

1. I don't know of any computer that does not factor in repetitive dives... So let's assume that this one does. Let's also assume that this is the first dive in a series. That keeps things simple and gets rid of that variable.

2. Work load is somewhat taken into account with AI computers... They measure breathing rate, and thus have a rough estimate of your workload. If the load is higher, you'll use more gas. Since this diver is near his NDL, but still has plenty of gas, this diver either has a bunch of gas available to him or his work load is low. Again, to keep things simple, let's assume that his work load is low and his consumption is respectable.

3. I haven't looked into which computers actually take temperature into account... Perhaps the popular brands do and perhaps they don't. Temperature effects quite a bit when it comes to DCS (think about how much "fizzier" cold Coke is when it's cold or poured over ice cubes), but typically that would also manifest itself in poor air consumption. Since we've assumed his air consumption is good, let's assume a moderate temperature with the correct exposure protection - say, 78* in a 3 mil.

...So we've assumed a very nice dive with little effect from the "variables" you were talking about.

Still think there's no problem?

While we're at it, let's get another variable out of the way... Let's say that this diver is diving open ocean, and he's diving clear water and can see the anchor line (the "upline") that's around 50 feet away.

Since he's a good buddy, he signals to his fellow diver that it's time to ascend, right? There's a slight current at the top, so they'd want to do the ascent on the upline, right?

Still see no problem?

The two of them get together and head for the anchor line. It takes them about 40 seconds to get there. Now the computer's reading 1 minute. They begin their ascent. Since most computers will "beep" at you if you exceed an ascent rate of 30 fpm, they head up at just under that rate.

Our diver now has 1 minute of NDL left.

One minute later... Where are they on the upline?

See the problem now?

They're at 90 feet with zero bottom time left. They've gone into deco. Not a problem if that's what they were planning... But they weren't.

I say this out of personal experience. :(

Another minute goes by. They're now at 60 feet, and their computer is now telling them that they have a mandatory deco stop at 15'... Which is a little unnerving because they've never done a deco stop before. They weren't trained to do deco stops. Not yet, anyway.

Yet another minute goes by, and they're at 30 feet... With the computer beeping something unintelligible. Our buddy did great by reading the owner's manual for his computer many times, but still... This is the first time he's dived it past his NDL - which, by the way, his owner's manual tells him to never do.

At 15', our hero can't really make out what his computer's telling him (it's all new to him), but he's been diving for a couple of years, and he remembers the plan for stops if he blows his deco. Eight minutes if under 5, right? Or is that 12 under? Five minutes at 12 feet? Shoot. He wishes he could remember...

Okay, let's stay safe. Let's do... 15 minutes at 15'. Sounds good.

Good thing he had all that extra gas, isn't it? What if he hadn't? What if his rate was worse than it is? By the way, with all of this kicking around and anxiety of doing deco, guess what's happened to his breathing rate?

What would you do if you had a mandatory deco of 15 minutes at 15 feet (he thinks) but only 5 minutes worth of gas?

Now, hang at 15 and think about it for a quarter of an hour and consider how that little thing on your wrist just about put you in a world of trouble...
 
The problem above can be remedied by "turning" your dive earlier... When, exactly, to turn your dive is a function of something called a "floor," which isn't taught in OW or AOW classes.

Simply put, this diver has a gauge on his console which tells him a lot of vital information... One of them being his remaining time to NDL.

That number is a number that tells him how long until he has to be above the floor. It is not "time until turn," and it is not, "time to surface." It is "time until he needs to be above the floor."

Now, my Suunto computer also factors in an ascent time... Sorta. It assumes a 30 fpm ascent (which, by the way makes it beep annoyingly - so I slow down) and it assumes that I can make an immediate ascent, which is not the case in a lot of diving... Especially any sort of overhead, but including open ocean, where ascending on the upline is not only a good idea, but mandatory with some dive excursions.

But since that NDL time takes all of these things into consideration, that number changes with depth changes. In short, it's not exactly clear most of the time.

But... The definition of a "floor"... Which is vitally important, especially in this case... Is the point at which that diver's body stops ongassing and begins offgassing. In other words, it's the point at which his computer stops "counting down" NDL and starts "counting up." That depth varies, and it varies with who you believe and which algorithm you believe. But Suunto believes, in most cases, it's somewhere around 35 feet.

So... The bottom line... At the beginning of our story, this diver had two minutes to be above the floor, which was around 35 feet. Since, at 30 fpm, this diver could not have gotten to 35 feet even if he ascended directly, (he's have been at 60) he was already screwed. Even if he didn't come up on the upline.
 
Still believe your computer?

Let's try this one on for size. If you thought the last one was bad, wait'll you read this one:

A year later (our hero got spooked by the unplanned deco) his buddy talks him into diving again.

This time the dive's a bit shallower, which makes him feel better about the situation. The conditions are identical.

They splash over the side, and his nervousness subsides a bit. "Ahhhhh... I've missed this," he thinks. (Poor guy... We're really gonna screw him this time.) :)

He and his buddy descend to 80', and he's pretty nervous... But he's going to make sure that he leaves waaaay in time this time. Cool.

His consumption's up a bit... He notices when they hit the sand that he's at 80', and his NDL is 40 minutes. Dive time so far is 2 minutes, and he's got 29 minutes of air. "29 minutes," he thinks. "Okay, I wanna be leaving in 20, at least."

They swim around a while, and true to his thoughts, he signals to his buddy at 20 minutes that it's time to ascend. They swim to the anchor line (which takes a bit of work) and he notices that even though he's only taken two minutes to get to the upline, his computer is now telling him that he's got 5 minutes of gas left... Instead of the 9 that he was hoping for and the 7 that he thought he'd have at this point. "Let's get outta here," he thinks.

They begin the ascent, and he's thrilled to know that as they ascend, his "time to empty" appears to climb. It goes from 4 minutes to 5, then to 6 as they go to 65'. Entertained, he looks at his psi gauge on his computer. It reads 500 psi... And a safety stop required at 15' (he reread the manual again 'cause he got spooked so bad last time).

That's when the spit hits the fan.

His buddy, who hadn't been watching his gauges, has an OOA.

Now think about that for a moment. The computer wasn't computing for two people... It had only been computing for one. That 6 minute air time just got cut in half. Worse... Our hero and his buddy are a bit stressed now, and it actually got cut in third.

...So between the two of them, they've got 2.5 minutes of air left... And a mandatory safety stop.

What would you do?

Let me interject one more problem... Our hero, who has been diving his new, cool, air integrated Cobra has been watching it closely, right? With which hand? The left one, correct?

Where's his right one been? On the upline, right?

...So with which hand did he grab his "octo?" The right one, right? He donated... That went without a hitch... But where the heck is the upline?

Still think there's no problem?
 
Tom R once bubbled...
How many computer recalls did we have this year alone?


Of all the posts here, I think Tom's original one is the one containing the best information (the one above is a close fourth)

Now Tom and I do similar sorts of dives, and although he and I differ on some details, we share a similar philosophy regarding dive planning and dive preparedness. What I mean to say is: There are some universal truths... and there are some sound practices that it's a good idea to follow.

Re-read what Tom told you... all you need to know is right there.

Steve Lewis
 
Dive Source once bubbled...
I have dove the Cobra since it came out and it has performed flawlessly and I love the features.

Add this to the fact that out of well over 100 cobras we sold in the last 18 months, we have not had one return or failure reported to us, which impressed the heck out of me. (The Sherwood Wisdom and the Oceanic Pro2 are also good units and have preformed as well)

Pressure gauges can fail, depth gauges can fail, bottom timers can fail, watches can fail, regulators can fail, tanks can have bad air, o-rings can leak etc.....

Batteries just like tank pressures can and should be checked before a dive.

If your gear fails or something is wrong, end your dive immediately it's that simple. Whether or not you can read the instrument makes little difference at that point as your goal is to reach the surface .

The real exception to this is if you are doing technical diving where you must always know where you are at due to decompression obligations. That type of diving requires mucho knowledge and training as well as back up, but for recreational diving back-up SPG's and dual bottom timers are a bit much from my experiance.

If you look at equipment failure purely from a statistical viewpoint using our sample group the Cobra has been excellent and actually exceeds the reliabilty of some manufacturers analog instruments.

It would be interesting to hear from other shop owners on this board about their experiances with computer reliabilty and what type of of problems they have had (if any). I think it is much lower than many would think.

Hope this helps with your decision.

Brian P.

I have to agree with on equipment failing anything can go wrong even the most simple of equipment eg gauges regs.
So what do tech. divers do?? Do they not dive with computers ??
I have had my o-ring go on me on my dive in British Columbia and there is not much you can prevent that from happening but I was lucky I was already doing a deco stop and had at least 1000 psi in my tank at that time.:)
 
on my way wanda once bubbled...


I have to agree with on equipment failing anything can go wrong even the most simple of equipment eg gauges regs.
So what do tech. divers do?? Do they not dive with computers ??
I have had my o-ring go on me on my dive in British Columbia and there is not much you can prevent that from happening but I was lucky I was already doing a deco stop and had at least 1000 psi in my tank at that time.:)


You asked what do technical divers do... do they not dive with computers?

Can't speak for them all, but the ones I train are discouraged from using them... They are taught to understand the curve of the algorithm and to be able to generate tables on the fly. :)

Computers -- especially on technical dives and even more especially for people just getting into technical diving -- are not a good idea IMHO.

Sorry. Save your money!
 
How many computer recalls did we have this year alone?-TOMR

This is a great question from TomR and of course should be looked at with some detail as it might sound like there was a rash of recalls by all of the computer manufacturers.

How many, what manufacturers and which products are important to know when making decisions about instrumentation.

In checking the Consumer Products Safety Commission website as well as Cyberdiver , I found the recalls you may be thinking about this year were on the UWATEC Smart PRO and the Smart COM dive computers and the 1995 Uwatec Aladin AirX

- Last year was the Vytec for an obscure malfunction in the SIMPLAN function ( used in surface planning )

- Four years ago in 1999 Oceanic/Aeris had a recall which they jumped on fast.

Suunto and Oceanic were excellent from what we saw and were very proactive and helpful ( I don't know about uwatec as we don't carry them)

You may also notice several recalls about other types of equipment (even pressure gauges and dive tables). All of these items are arguably just as dangerous and could also spark long what if type debates about every aspect of diving. ( I love wanda's O-ring example)

A thought that comes to my mind that may be a topic for another thread is how many people are having their instruments (analog or digital) checked for accuracy on a regular basis. Any instrument can be innacurate and give erroneous data so checking against benchmarks is also a good idea.

The passion, experiance and knowledge shown in this thread are impressive ( TomR and Steve L certainly know tech diving in Ontario) and hopefully Wanda can use what she reads here to improve her awareness while diving as well as make an educated decision about her computer purchase.

BP
 
I have heard alot on the cobra but has anyone experienced the scubapro smart com ????
I also have heard of some tech divers who use dive computer eg suunto and cut tables as well. :hmmm:
 
As a matter of fact, I just got it. What impressed me most was I was able to figure out all of the computers options and functions without reading any instructions. It is VERY user friendly.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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