Recreational Dive Light Manufacturers:Behind the Times

[cool_hardware52]

He is just expressing an opinion-just freedom of speech. Perhaps his post will inspire someone-maybe you- to do the "step up".

No need to put someone down for their thoughts.

Sooo...... it's ok for the OP to try and motivate me to solve his dilemma, but if I suggest he jump into the fray it's a put down.

My suggestion is to:

Do some market research, i.e. become educated about why the current US light brands aren't providing what the OP deems "State of the Art"

If there's an opportunity act on it.

Hard to see how that's a put down.

Tobin

 

[mdb]

I don't see how anyone-especially the OP-was trying to motivate you to solve anything. He was simply expressing his opinion.

 

[Gombessa]

Yeah...I think that was the beginning of the end for them. I actually had a chance to meet him at the ABA Grands one year; nice guy, but a shrewed business man

At the risk of derailing the thread, I completely agree. Some businesses are driven by singular personalities, and GT was definitely one of them. I still have a '96 Zaskar LE built from scratch, and though I rarely ride nowadays, I can't bring myself to get rid of it.

 

[cool_hardware52]

He is just expressing an opinion-just freedom of speech. Perhaps his post will inspire someone-maybe you- to do the "step up".

No need to put someone down for their thoughts.

I don't see how anyone-especially the OP-was trying to motivate you to solve anything. He was simply expressing his opinion.

Motivate, inspire, are they that different?

Tobin

 

[Mattleycrue76]

I guess i am the only one so far to agree 100% with Tobin. The market for cheap commodity type products will belong to China for the forseable future. OTOH I love My Salvo/Light Monkey 21w HID light, made right here in the US and I have yet to see anything out of China that could give it a run for it's money (despite it's price).

 

[mdb]

Motivate, inspire, are they that different?

Tobin

He does not seem to need any motivation or inspiration from you. Just expressing his opinion.

 

[gcbryan]

OK, just back from the climbing gym. How did this become a thread about Tobin? Anyway, look at my post as a public service announcement.

I did get what I want. I'm testing it and refining it at the moment. I've learned how to get what I want.

Maybe other's will want to do the same if they realize that there are better light choices out there. If no one is interested or if everyone is happy with what's currently available ...great!

I like posts where someone tells me something I don't know. I already know about narcosis, nitrox, not holding my breath, etc.

There is no reason to bitch about China however. They are just doing what we did earlier in the last century.

However, warranty issues is a big part of the dive light equation if you are talking about manufacturing lights in China to your spec's, testing and importing them. It doesn't matter how large your profit margin is if 50% of your lights are returned due to flooding. Non diving flashlights are a commodity not dive lights. Dive lights have a better profit margin they just have a smaller market.

UK probably already is mainly just an engineering firm. They spec the lights and someone else manufactures them. Magicshine doesn't know much ( apparently) at this point about dive lights. If it's profitable they will do what is necessary to learn however. Why wouldn't they.

It's crazy that people are upset that China or any other country would do what is in their best interests. That's what we do and that is what every country and company does. What's new?

Bitching and moaning about change has never benefited any industry or company.

I'll be happy when the Chinese produce great lights. I just want a great light. My car that never needs to be repaired is Japanese. I'd glad it's not a piece of Detroit crap.

When I can say the same about Detroit cars I'll be happy that my great car is from Detroit.

Nemrod, I don't really know why a few lights seem to have problems at around 20 feet. I've only heard of Ron's situation in addition to mine. In my case changing batteries solved the problem. Ron hasn't, I don't believe, been on a dive with his light since the problem. Perhaps when he does changing the battery will fix that problem as well.

My battery tested fine on a multi-meter both before and after the dive. It's the battery chemistry of the li-ion that may be temperamental. But I really don't know.

My light flooded last Tuesday night and it still continued working. I cleaned the board and the driver/switching now works and this was after flooding in salt water. I've since sealed the board with silicone except for the copper pad where the battery makes contact.

I also believe, after receiving some help from another board, that the spring needs to be clipped which I did. I clipped off one coil to allow the lens to fully compress the o-ring. When the o-ring is no longer fully compressed due to water pressure the bezel is free to rotate loose. It has very few threads. The light floods. My bezel was too tight for me to undo when I got it through the next 4 dives until it suddenly flooded and I saw the loose bezel.

I've now fixed those two issues and will be diving again this Tuesday night. As long as something doesn't happen that I can't fix I'm having a good time as it is a learning experience for me.

Even if I end up sacrificing this light due to experimenting I could buy another and utilize the fixes learned from this light and I would still only have $200 into this project. If this was a plastic light there would be nothing that I could fix.

I'll have a great light. I'm just trying to let others who are interested know what I've learned and am learning.

 

[cool_hardware52]

However, warranty issues is a big part of the dive light equation if you are talking about manufacturing lights in China to your spec's, testing and importing them. It doesn't matter how large your profit margin is if 50% of your lights are returned due to flooding. Non diving flashlights are a commodity not dive lights. Dive lights have a better profit margin they just have a smaller market.

You aren't describing a warranty issue. You are describing a failure in design and maybe QC. There is a very important difference.

One cannot "Inspect In" quality. One must design quality into the both the product and the process.

Good design based on a though understanding of the demands of the application, is the starting point. A good design is both robust for the end user, and is tolerant of reasonable variations in the manufacturing process.

Much of the led, hand held portable lighting business now is dominated by foreign producers who offer a "menu" of product choices to firms who want to rebrand those offerings.

A particular emitter mated to a battery system enclosed in a machined tube of some sort. One from column A, one from column B and one from column C. What size and color do you want your logo printed in?

The idea that the rebranding firms have any real design input in these situations is just naive.

The actual producers of these goods view the rebranders correctly as distributors for their products.

A commodity lacks differentiation, and when *Everybody* willing to order some minimum quantity can have the exact same goods, just with a different hot stamped logo, there is no differentiation, leaving only price.

Look at regulators, no reason dive lights should be any different.

Tobin

 

[gcbryan]

There is no argument here. If all you are doing is rebranding then that's all you are doing. You're argument is that this is what is going to happen. It may or may not. If dive light companies let it happen it will.

UK isn't simply selling rebranded lights at the moment however. Very few Chinese companies are designing dive lights at the moment.

I was emailing back and forth with someone at Romisen (another Chinese flashlight manufacturer). They don't currently make dive lights although their design in some ways is better than some of the other manufacturers. It was their light that I modified into a dive light.

Through our email discussion I learned that they did indeed send their entire product line to an Australian company last year who did some testing and told them which of their lights could easily become dive lights and which ones couldn't.

According to this person that company was to come to China to tour the factory but for some reason never came.

In the case of the company that made the Cree MC-E diving light (or the ugly light as we call it in another thread) they only tested the light in a pressure pot and then basically just started production.

So, at the moment, there is no rebranding going on in these cases. I'm sure the Tusa lights are just rebranded Intova or something similar.

Regarding your lecturing on warranty vs QA and basic design. I agree. I used to work for a manufacturing company in the engineering department testing new products. I understand these concepts. Perhaps you just like to lecture. That's fine but it's hijacking the thread somewhat.

You keep talking about there being no way to compete with large foreign companies. The fact that they are foreign has nothing to do with it. They currently have certain advantage and certain disadvantages.

You don't like the competitive marketplace/government rules and regulations in the US. It's generally better than in Europe and in the end it is what it is.

The main problem is simply change. Some companies do a better job of adapting. Scubatoys is doing a great job of adapting in their industry.

You are more concerned about the company than about the consumer. The consumer doesn't care about the company if every need is met. If anyone wants to turn this thread into a "buy American thread" please just start a new thread.

 

[Damselfish]

sometimes, it's not what you say. It's how you say it.