Redundancy Required for Decompression Diving?

[Diving Dubai]

@Storker

Yeah, I totally get where you're coming from. Like you I was PADI RD. I was encouraged to take BSAC DL because we (my wife and I) were already at the stage of running dive trips, albeit with a DL or above on board as a "mentor" With us being DL we could contribute more to the club by being part of the pool of people that could run dives.

I've started my PADI DM, purely because I'm being looked on more and more as some who can mentor people, and I think that PADI gives a good training in being able to deliver and demonstrate content and skills so I'm aiming for IDC too. I'll still pursue my BSAC instructor, but the logistics of scheduling courses are more difficult.

In the long run, our kids are a couple of years off college so we can look forward to retirement. I'd like to engage in passing my knowledge and skills to a new generation. PADI seems to be the idea stepping stone, given it's "easier" to cross over from PADI to another commercial than the other way around. I also think there is value in having the combined perspective from a couple of agencies. As get I don't know which agency I'll end up with (due to end location)

I'm still not sold on fundies, I'm not sure how much benefit it would give me. For instance the min standard for a Fundies rec pass on buoyancy is you need to hold a stop within 1.5m of the depth. My Accelerated Deco course I was pushed to achieve the BSAC black or 0.3m. I'm sure I could learn stuff no doubt, but I don't think the gains would be that great especially as I don't want to go further down that route. The only reason I'd take a Tec course would be to further hone my Rec knowlege. But we all have different end goals.

I'm loving the journey though and enjoying being challenged with my learning again

 

[Freewillow]

The French do deco dives without redundancy everyday...
Usually up to ~15min asc time or so.

Viva a France! . Except they don't... And what u wrote is nonsense

@devon Diver: That you are saying this loudly and rather impolitelly - with your usual huge advertisement for yourself - does not make you right all the time.

The French, with their FFESSM are teaching their divers to plan for deco obligations from the second level -N2.
I am myself diving looking at my TTS and air supply - together with my buddy wife - rather than my NDL. And I believe I am no different from experienced divers from the European continent. The French do not consider diving with a small deco obligation to be technical dives, but "plongée loisir".

As Diver0001 very elegantly expressed it # 34: the way one handles deco obligations is a function of a lot of factors... I will not repeat them.

Wheter you like it or not, is a different story

 

[DevonDiver]

You don't see any difference between learning and knowing a set of rules and then choosing when and how to break them versus taking the same action with no knowledge of what "rules" you're breaking?

So, how do you guard against creeping complacency and normalization-of-deviance?

With all due respect, I've been there. It's common. That sweet point when you appraise yourself to "know better" and start believing you're beyond the 'guidelines' meant for lesser divers.

That's why accident rates creep up amongst the experienced diver demographic.

 

[stuartv]

So, how do you guard against creeping complacency and normalization-of-deviance?

You are implying that all variance from training is complacency and normalization of deviance and that's simply not true. As I have said several times, it is possible to learn things without getting formal training. One CAN better oneself.

 

[KevinNM]

You are implying that all variance from training is complacency and normalization of deviance and that's simply not true. As I have said several times, it is possible to learn things without getting formal training. One CAN better oneself.

Yes, but is that really what you are doing?

Want to ignore the rules? Then do this…
I am reminded of something my mate, Wayland Rhys Morgen suggested for anyone who is about to — either figuratively or actually — hand their beer to someone and say: “Here, watch this…”

The next time you intend to deviate from best practice, take a piece of note paper and divide it into two columns. Write in block letters at the top of the left-hand column: “What people usually do.” On the right, also in block letters, write: “What I am going to do instead.” Then in the appropriate column write clear, concise language an explanation of each behavior associated with your planned dive. So, these ‘behaviors’ would cover things like analyzing and labeling gas cylinders, limiting depth and duration according to your training, recent experience, and the vagaries of the environment… stuff like that. Read it back to yourself — both columns — then sign and date it. Then give it for safekeeping to someone you trust: lover, spouse, son, daughter, best buddy, favorite cowgirl. It really does not matter much to whom, just hand it over. Tell them to give it to the people or agency that leads the inquiry should something bad happen to you on your adventure.

 

[Freewillow]

What about differences in standards between agencies.

Which one do you follow? Only to speak about the 2 agencies that I know the most : PADI and the french FFSSEM. For some things they are VERY different.

What would be wrong in trying to find what is best in several agencies? This is one of the reasons, I am on dive forums from different cultures ;

 

[stuartv]

Yes, but is that really what you are doing?

There are people who were trained years ago and trained to only dive based on tables and planned out completely before they got in. Then computers came along and got cheap and many of those people changed to doing recreational dives using a computer with little or no advance dive planning - and with no further training. Is that complacency? Was their training naught but a purchased card?

I was trained to dive with a primary 2nd stage on a short hose and an alternate run under my arm to an octo keeper on my right shoulder strap. And, if a diver gave me the OOA signal, my training was to give them the alternate that was hanging off my chest. I read up on different ways of doing things and changed to using a primary on a 40" hose run under my arm and keeping my alternate on a bungee necklace. And I changed my plan for an OOA diver to be giving them the reg from my mouth. I did that without further training. Was my training money wasted? Did I just buy a C card? It's a deviance from my training, which I have normalized. But is it bad?

Do you do every single thing exactly the way you were trained? Or have you evolved? Have you never learned of better ways to do some things and incorporated them into your diving without formal training?

You guys are being a bit ridiculous. If EVERYONE ALWAYS stuck to exactly their training, then nobody would even be diving, because there was nobody to train the first diver. Someone had to be first. And if someone can be first (and better), why can't other people learn and improve through means other than formal training?

 

[DevonDiver]

What about differences in standards between agencies.....

If you're TRAINED by those agencies and apply that training diligently... then you can select the most appropriate protocol.

The individual dictates which is most appropriate and preferable. With respect to TECHNICAL diving, deciding the most appropriate is usually to select what's safest.

I dont know any quality, experienced tech divers who'd shop around agencies for different protocols and deliberately select less sound options simply to empower diving activities that were more convenient or cheaper.

What would be wrong in trying to find what is best in several agencies? This is one of the reasons, I am on dive forums from different cultures ;

You're on the Internet to research alternative agencies and determine which agency you should take training with?

Or to shop around for superficial powerment from total strangers that gives you options to ignore your own training and 'learn' decompression diving from Internet forums?

Which one do you follow? Only to speak about the 2 agencies that I know the most : PADI and the french FFSSEM. For some things they are VERY different

My qualified experience stems from BSAC, PADI, SSI, TDI, ANDI and IART. I also have extensive, but not qualified, practical and theoretical understanding of GUE and IANTD teaching and protocols.

BSAC, like CMAS (with who I hold a 2* instructor equivalency rating card) and other continental sub-organizations have a very historical approach to deco diving. I find it quite anachronistic.

That said, and as mentioned before, people tend to leap on what those agencies 'allow' at qualification levels - without considering how those agencies still apply significant restrictions on divers through club and instructor relationships.

Beyond the CMAS derived clubs, all modern and global agencies are very clear that decompression diving is technical diving... and have very robust training suited to the risks and demands associated with an overhead restriction.... including life-support equipment redundancy and correct mindset/attitude.

 

[DevonDiver]

There are people who were trained years ago and trained to only dive based on tables and planned out completely before they got in.

Yep, I did technical diving that way originally.

Then computers came along and got cheap and many of those people changed to doing recreational dives using a computer with little or no advance dive planning - and with no further training. Is that complacency?

This is a technical diving forum.

Recreational diving is essentially forgiving and thus, much more tolerating of complacency, training deficit and over-zealous/under-capable divers.

If your argument is nothing more than "but recreational divers do it...", then you obviously failed to grasp some critical issues in your tech training.

It's a deviance from my training, which I have normalized. But is it bad?

Do you do every single thing exactly the way you were trained? Or have you evolved?

I sought further training.

Where I've 'evolved' has been a process of diligently selecting the most prudent and comprehensive protocol solutions to further improve safety and survival.

Evolution has come from personal interactions with divers who I've been in-water with... mentors... often it's shown and proven in-water. It's subsequently tried and tested extensively before being relied upon.

I don't try and teach myself technical diving from the internet.

I've never shopped around internet forums for excuses to empower me to act in ways that directly oppose the training and recommendations I've been trained to understand.... and certainly never just for the sake of convenience or to blow off safety recommendations.

Let's remember that this is the TECHNICAL area. If you want to put forward a recreational diver perspective, perhaps you'd be better served posting in a different area.

 

[stuartv]

Let's remember that this is the TECHNICAL area. If you want to put forward a recreational diver perspective, perhaps you'd be better served posting in a different area.

No, this is the Advanced Scuba forum. There is a separate forum for Tech diving.