Reef Swim-Through Dangers

[seaducer]

...No mention of OOA procedures, what to do if you become separarted from the group, hand signals to be used, etc.

Typically you will not get that information in a briefing. Personally I feel this is standard stuff and so may not need to be covered in every dive.

OOA you should have learned in OW class, find the nearest diver, signal OOA, begin an air share and ascend. Seperation should have also been covered, search for 1 minute and then ascend.

Although I will tell you that the group will not ascend to meet you there. Typically more experienced divers deliberatly "get lost", to avoid the CF that a large group often becomes. I do this myself, although I try to make sure to let the DM know I am planning this before the dive. Just good manners.

Just keep in mind that just because there is a DM there, you are still responsible for your own diving.

@ Walter- I agree, most likely the DM guides are better divers, they certainly get more bottom time. But when they act as guides, IME they are a little bit casual about it. I am not blaming them, interviewing and making decisions for the boat would cause way more trouble than it saves in the end, with people getting hurt feelings and such.

And I am not bashing them either, hell I would trade jobs with just about any one of them if I could

But typically I find that the dive is the dive, and it won't be tailored to the least common denominator very often. And I suppose it shouldn't. However this is something that people need to know before they deboard the boat on the wet side, so that they can hopefully make good decisions for themselves.

 

[leapfrog]

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Are you refferring to me? I have never had a DM ask me about my diving history, skill level, comfort, etc. So in my experience, they do not evaluate the divers they are about to lead on a dive. If by "situational awareness" you mean you check out their gear, watch how they set it up, and listen in to what they are saying or not saying on the boat, I have another term form that. Assumptions.

OK, well, here's how I do it. I'm friendly but not too overbearing. Try to keep a smile on my face (and not my natural intense frown). Check Qual Cards. (Yeah, I know people don't like it and have opinions but...) ask if they have their log book with them because we are going to see great things and there will be plenty to write about not just fill in the stats. Talk about pieces of gear, where did they get it, do they feel comfortable with that reg because I'm curious. Where do you come from, where did you start diving.... it takes time and practice to get a routine going where you can be attentive and polite without being intrusive. I happen to work with a Center that has three boats and two go out simultaneously with different level divers. The third one is for long distances away from harbor (day excursions). So that gives us a reason to ask and talk. Want to come over and dive with us? Oh, by the way, nice regs you have there, where did you get them?

 

[seaducer]

I believe the DM is responsible for the safety of the group he is leading, especially of they are relatively inexperienced. If I knew enough not to do what the DM says is OK, I wouldn't need him in the first place. You seem to be saying that it's fine to go through the training and certification where you taught to follow the briefing and DM instructions, but if they are wrong , it's your fault.

No. What he is saying is that you have to make the decision to follow the DM into the swimthrough. They are optional, and that should have been covered in the briefing, but sometimes they don't spell it out.

Anyway, what Walter is saying is that the first time you followed the DM in, that was a pass on your part, you didn't know better. But after that, knowing that you were not comfortable with the swimthroughs, you should have stayed outside.
You may well be faced with these situations in the future, maybe on a trip, or maybe a local dive.

You have to be ready to call a dive, or skip a portion, if you feel it is beyond your limits or comfort zone. Even if your buddy gets mad, or you lose some money. Take care of yourself first, because nobody but you cares as much about you.

 

[leapfrog]

And I am not bashing them either, hell I would trade jobs with just about any one of them if I could.

You want to be poor, wet, hungry, tired, cold.....? You missed you vocation in life. You can still do it, maybe difficult to go back though. This is a one way street! Go on, ask me: ask me what the most frequent friendly comment from my customers is...

 

[seaducer]

OK, well, here's how I do it. I'm friendly but not too overbearing. Try to keep a smile on my face (and not my natural intense frown). Check Qual Cards. (Yeah, I know people don't like it and have opinions but...) ask if they have their log book with them because we are going to see great things and there will be plenty to write about not just fill in the stats. Talk about pieces of gear, where did they get it, do they feel comfortable with that reg because I'm curious. Where do you come from, where did you start diving.... it takes time and practice to get a routine going where you can be attentive and polite without being intrusive. I happen to work with a Center that has three boats and two go out simultaneously with different level divers. The third one is for long distances away from harbor (day excursions). So that gives us a reason to ask and talk. Want to come over and dive with us? Oh, by the way, nice regs you have there, where did you get them?

Not bad. I would prefer that more DM's did that. I don't care if you card me, check my log. I know some boats you have to show that before you get on, but I feel it is part of the DM's job. And quite frankly, since you are getting in the water with me, it is in your best interest to know a little about me before hand.

And yeah, there is always gonna be that guy that gets his feathers ruffled no matter how nice you are about it.

It would be nice in this situation if the DM said we are going to do a swim through, but you don't have to follow me in, you can stay on the outside if you want. Most do, some don't, and for a new diver or one who never went on a trip before, that sends a signal.

 

[seaducer]

You want to be poor, wet, hungry, tired, cold.....? You missed you vocation in life. You can still do it, maybe difficult to go back though. This is a one way street! Go on, ask me: ask me what the most frequent friendly comment from my customers is...

LOL, I was that in the military for a few years. Which is why I qualified with "if I could", lol. I am too used to things the way they are now I am afraid.

But do tell, what do they say?

 

[Walter]

I believe the DM is responsible for the safety of the group he is leading, especially of they are relatively inexperienced.

I value my life way to much to turn over responsibility for it to someone I know virtually nothing about. I believe it is the DM's responsibility not to lead you into undue danger, but I don't blindly trust them to act in that manner. I further believe every adult is responsible for their own safety. Don't put yourself in dangerous situations. It's much better to accept reponsibility for your own safety and prevent your death than to have your family blame some DM.

If I knew enough not to do what the DM says is OK, I wouldn't need him in the first place.

If you are certified, you either don't need him or you need to take a better class. There are a few places, like Cozumel when they are required by a silly law.

You seem to be saying that it's fine to go through the training and certification where you taught to follow the briefing and DM instructions, but if they are wrong , it's your fault.

I never taught people to blindly follow instructions from a DM. If you do something wrong, regardless of who tells you to do it, it is your fault.

I think we now have 3 pages of much ado about nothing. Cozumel's swim throughts with a few exceptions aren't even as enclosed or light deprived as your average recreational wreck.

I'm still on page one.

Unless you know what you're doing, you sure as hell shouldn't be going inside wrecks.

when they act as guides, IME they are a little bit casual about it. I am not blaming them, interviewing and making decisions for the boat would cause way more trouble than it saves in the end, with people getting hurt feelings and such.

I can tell more about your ability from watching you dive for two minutes than by checking your certs, logbooks and interviewing you for 30.

Anyway, what Walter is saying is that the first time you followed the DM in, that was a pass on your part, you didn't know better. But after that, knowing that you were not comfortable with the swimthroughs, you should have stayed outside.

BINGO!

 

[DeputyDan]

I agree with a previous post about most swim thrus being sterile with little to see.

I did a liveaboard in the Caymans and my buddy loved swim thrus - We devised a dive plan (on the surface) on how we would handle each one. We did lots of them and I really didn't see anything in any of them that was worth the extra effort.


They are not really the best diving option!

 

[ClayJar]

I felt comfortable..., which led me to believe everything was OK.

To quote The Princess Bride, "You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!" :biggrin:

Many times I've heard experienced divers talking about dives they'd done as newer divers. "If I knew then what I know now," they say, "I would never have done that!" The common thread is always that gaps in knowledge easily lead to taking risks unawares.

Feeling *uncomfortable* is certainly ample reason for reevaluating (possibly canceling) a dive. On the other hand, feeling *comfortable* does not actually tell you anything. Comfort can come as easily from ignorance or complacency as it can from preparation and readiness. You can feel perfectly comfortable going in to a 150' dive on a single AL80, although once you learn more, the very idea seems unfathomably foolhardy.

Comfort is nice to have, but it can also be dangerous if it is taken to mean that a dive's risk is acceptable.

 

[InkDiver]

To the OP, consider your experience a great lesson learned in your continued diving education.

No "Trust Me" dives ever

During cave training, my instrctor made it very clear that we were not to violate our standards, especially turning the dive at our agreed upon turn pressure. During the last training dive, we turned the dive, did a few drills, and then the instructor proceeded to go further into the cave, waving us to follow. Fortunately, we didn't. Had we followed, it would not have been our final training dive, and we would have received a good tongue lashing. He did it on purpose to see if he could get us to violate our standards by "trusting" him.

You have to trust yourself and your training, bottom line. The DM is nice to have along, but if you feel uncomfortable with something they are guiding you to, you have every right to call the dive. Lots of people have met with unpleasant fates by doing a "Trust Me" dive.