Refunds for Students who Can't pass O/W?

[plsdiver4377]

I paid for all my surveying and engineering classes. I earned my licenses through testing (which you pay for of course) of which I had to take one of them twice and had to pay for the test twice as well. So in general I say no since you pay for the training and there are no guarantees you'll meet the requirements for certification or licensing as the case may be.

FWIW I also believe if someone wants to do something bad enough they will continue with training until they are able to accomplish it.

My 2 cents

Cheers

 

[fins wake]

why not ask them what they would do if they found they couldn't keep their head above long enough for a good breath? If they answer remove weight belt then that would sound like a sensible solution to me.

I agree entirely with Jonathan on this.

You merely have to kick (scissor kick) high enough to get one good breath. As you sink, you exhale into your oral inflator. Kick again and repeat. Each kick is easier than the one before. Unless grossly overweighted, anyone healthy enough to dive can easily complete the skill.

I strongly disagree with teaching out this method. The main reason being, that when a diver actually ends up in trouble he/she will often revert to what he/she was taught during initial training.

A diver in trouble at the surface should ALWAYS drop the weights!

I strongly believe this general rule would save hundreds of lives annually! I base my firm conviction on many hours of study of dive accidents and incidents and discussions with first-hand witnesses to diving fatalities. I once spent a whole car ride from a dive site talking to a guy who witnessed a diver drowning in a mere 10 metres of water after surfacing and then getting in trouble. The weigh belt was never dropped but would likely have saved the diver's life.

I spent the (non-diving) parts of this very weekend talking to the national safety officer and pouring over last year's incident reports with her. A great number of the fatalities we discussed occurred with the diver regaining the surface and not dropping the weights.

I strongly believe the weight-belt dropping exercise is one of the most important ones - perhaps even the most important one - taught to newbie divers.

That doesn't mean Walter's method is useless (heck, we've all used it sometime when not in mortal danger and when not wanting to buy a new weight belt) but it shouldn't be taught in lieu of weight belt (or other weight system) removal.

Weight belt removal on the surface is to general diving what bailout procedures are to RB divers. If in doubt, go for it! Drop the weights. You can always laught about it on shore or on the boat later.

 

[redacted]

If the sign says BOW Instruction (or something to that effect) then there is no reason to refund other than good business on a prorated basis.

On the other hand, if the sign says BOW Certification (as I have often seen) then a refund would seem appropriate if the trainer/shop fails to provide the certification.

What do you advertise?

 

[Phish-phood]

Because the shop I did my OW training with deals a lot with referals and such they have individually priced each section of the course so you can pay for your theory, CW and OW seperately which could be a useful exercise. I agree that some monies should be refunded if you don't complete the course because at least some of the course fee goes to the certification body to pay for the C-card, at least it does in PADI and why should you pay this money if you don't get the card. Also what if you get in the pool and decide okay sorry but this just isn't for me, should you have to still pay the certification fee and the instructor fees for an OW course you didn't do?
I was very nervous about doing my training because I am clausterphobic, I explained this to my instructor and I paid for the theory and CW sections of the course. That meant that if I didn't complete the course the instructor was paid for the work he did and I didn't end up paying him for work he didn't do.
Before anyone jumps down my throat about earning certs not paying for them, I agree that this is true in terms of your diving after you have paid for your training and exams, but PADI charges for certification, a charge generally built into the cost of the course and if you don't make it why should you have to pay it?

Obviously there are situations where this isn't necessarily the case, a diver who refuses to learn, or lies about a medical condition or something along those lines they should have to pay full fees for wasting an instructors time.

As far as the weight belt issue goes believe me I would have no probs dropping mine. I'd rather be an embarressed and breathing diver than a dead weighted one Weights can be recovered/replaced, lives can't. It really is that simple to me!

 

[MikeFerrara]

Phish-phood once bubbled...
I agree that some monies should be refunded if you don't complete the course because at least some of the course fee goes to the certification body to pay for the C-card, at least it does in PADI and why should you pay this money if you don't get the card.

About $13 goes to PADI for cert fees (the pic). I would give that back. Student materials costs me around $50. Once the book is written in I sure don't want that back.

Also what if you get in the pool and decide okay sorry but this just isn't for me, should you have to still pay the certification fee and the instructor fees for an OW course you didn't do?

Well, the pool costs me the same for one student as it does for six. If I can't fill your spot or the class has already started you need to pay your share so the other students can have the class promised them. If some one wants to try a pool session to see if they like it we can arrange that with no commitment but once a student commits it's a done deal. I've taken a bath on just about every class I've ever tought. I have a class that started last night. There were six students signed up. One had a work issue come up, one did a resort course on vacation last week and hurt their ears and now I have 4 students. That's our break even point if I don't charge anything for my time. This happens every class. The result is that I pay double for pool and put in twice the time to get six students trained as I should and every one wants their money back.

The same goes for the OW portion. It cost me a couple hundred dollars to spend the weekend at the OW site. When there's supposed to be six but only 3 or 4 show the economics goes streight to hell.

I was very nervous about doing my training because I am clausterphobic, I explained this to my instructor and I paid for the theory and CW sections of the course. That meant that if I didn't complete the course the instructor was paid for the work he did and I didn't end up paying him for work he didn't do.
Before anyone jumps down my throat about earning certs not paying for them, I agree that this is true in terms of your diving after you have paid for your training and exams, but PADI charges for certification, a charge generally built into the cost of the course and if you don't make it why should you have to pay it?

No big deal keep the $13

Obviously there are situations where this isn't necessarily the case, a diver who refuses to learn, or lies about a medical condition or something along those lines they should have to pay full fees for wasting an instructors time.

These are things that happen all the time. In fact in almost every group of six there is one. The student I mentioned above with the hurt ear for instance. Last night I looked over his paper work. The medical form on his student file folder and the one signed by his doctor were filled out differently. He tried to skate through the first time. However, the doc signed him off. Now, he hurts his ears doing a resort course and says the doc won't let him dive and he wants his money back. I found out about this yesterday which is the day the class started. He can have his $13 PADI fee back.
[/B][/QUOTE]

 

[Phish-phood]

Mike I guess I wasn't clear again lol,

Of course if you drop out after one pool session I wold expect to pay the full pool session but would be mightily annoyed if I had to pay for a weekend away that I wasn't going to be doing unless of course I had left it until the last minute to tell them I wasn't going.

Here the PADI cert costs a bit more than $13 about £25 is what I have been told by an instructor. Okay it may not be much when the course costs upwards of £300 to do in the first place.

The case you mentioned is exactly what I am talking about as reagrds a situation that a person should not get any sort of refund because it was a waste your time when he was aware there may have been a problem to begin with.

But there can be some genuine cases and this is why I like the structure of my LDS where each section of the course if paid for individually and once you commit to a section and pay, it is non-refundable.

 

[Walter]

If an instructor budgets 8 pool sessions for 6 students, each of those 6 students is paying for 1/6 of ALL 8 pool sessions. If 1 student drops out after 1 pool session, the options are:

1. no refund for pool sessions.

2. refund for unused pool sessions and the instructor loses money teaching the class.

3. refund for unused pool sessions and the other 5 students pay more.

I'm not sure how others see it, but IMHO, the only real option is no refund for unused pool sessions.

 

[Genesis]

are, from what the LDS has told me here, $30.

Their OW class includes two boat dives, which, if you buy them, cost $50 (for the day), which you do not need or consume if you drop out before that point. That boat dive really does have cost to them, in that your slot on the boat can't be sold to someone else - so the charge is "real".

The OW class also includes two jetty dives, which are not typically "boat dives" per-se (they haul the gear on their pontoon boat, but not the divers), so you could reasonably claim "no harm or foul" if that wasn't completed.

With that said I suspect their answer on refunds would be "none"; I haven't asked, BUT, clearly, the cert and boat dives - $80 of their $300 charge - would be completely unused if you dropped out prior to the final day.

 

[Phish-phood]

Walter thats what I mean,

If you commit to the pool sessions and drop out after one or two - tough you must pay for them all. But why for the OW sessions when in my experience dive shops allow you to go on a weekend that suits you and not a set weekend so it is not affecting the budgeting or other students there at all?

 

[Drew Sailbum]

Phish-phood once bubbled...
Here the PADI cert costs a bit more than $13 about £25 is what I have been told by an instructor. Okay it may not be much when the course costs upwards of £300 to do in the first place.

PADI sells PIC registration envelopes (or credits to process a PIC online) to instructors and dive shops for about US$13. One envelope (or credit) must be used for each certification processed. Ignoring postage or internet connection fees, processing a PADI certification costs an instructor about US$13 for the PIC plus any cost for taking a photo and a bit for the time involved. The instructor's/dive shop's cost is pretty much the same the world over.

Of course shops can charge different rates to their customers if they choose to itemize this charge.