Respect for limits

[idocsteve]

I guess those people (cave instructors, resort owners, and professional divers)don't know what they are talking about.

If they're giving the bad advice stated in the Op then they are potentially risking the lives of others by suggesting they do a dive for which they are not properly trained, skilled, equipped or qualified.

That qualifies as "not knowing what they're talking about".

 

[Cave Diver]

I agree that encouraging people to dive beyond the limits of their training is a very bad idea. Putting things in perspective, places like Vortex and Ginnie frequently allow OW divers into relatively "safe" overhead environments.

I don't necessarily think either of these are a good idea, but I also don't think it's a good indicator of the prevalent attitude towards safety in caves for the rest of Florida.

 

[sabbath999]

The metric I use, when I'm contemplating something that might be dubious, is "What would the internet pundits say about me if I died doing this?"

Probably "DUH, she should have had a Spare Air to bail her out!"

 

[vinegarbiscuit]

Good on you, for sticking within the limits of your training and equipment. I'm honestly amazed that you received such contrary 'advice' from the folk you encountered. Their words sounded like the first few lines of a bad accident report.

 

[HateCheese]

We were not diving cave rigs, we were diving our "normal recreational" rigs (which are, I admit, not what most recreational divers wear, bp/w, bungied backup second state, seven foot hose primaries, hogarthian setup, etc) but we didn't have caver lights, just what will eventually be our "backup" lights.QUOTE]

Kind of sounds like - we almost have the cave gear and look like tech divers...

BCs are BCs, and don't make the diver, nor does how you have your second stage rigged. OK, a 7ft primary is standard for cave, but does anyone really care if it is a hog setup? I have yet to witness a gear breakdown that a hog setup would have prevented even though I've had plenty of pieces of gear break.

Really not trying to flame you, truly, because the most important thing is you didn't do a dive past your training. It is huge to thumb a dive, and I view that as a sign of someone who is a smart and safe diver who has dove long enough to know better. To me it is a sign of experience and I really give you credit for that.

More than once I've found this board full of people who are overly insistent on specific types of gear. Gear is just that, a specific tool. It reflects nothing on the ability of the person using the tool. I'd take someone in a poodle jacket w/ 500 dives over a new diver w/ 50 dives in a bp/w when it comes to skill.

I think this overly insistent attitude permeates to people feeling that their gear is a reflection of their skill/makes them safe divers/makes them X cert qualified. Reminds me of the attitude of someone who brags about how deep they've gone.

The best divers I've seen could switch gear and still be fantastic divers. Their training, knowledge gained thru experience, and skill translate to whichever variety of gear they are using. Their most valuable skill is how they calmly work thru adversity. So I guess I'm saying their most important piece of gear is their mind. Again, not trying to flame / rant. My guess after you thumbed that dive is you are on the road to or have already found out the most important gear you have is also between your ears.

 

[Thalassamania]

First of all, good call.

Secondly, while the rules are there for good reasons, there are situations where the rules are overkill (we discussed this with reference to diving on a flat bottom with no instruments in another thread). Unfortunately, the knowledge of when and where the rules might be reasonably broken is only gained through experience (and luck) or training and practice and a little less experience (and a little less luck).

You've got to weigh the potential costs against the possible gains ... I think you made the right choice, but then I do not cave dive ... I've lost too many friends who were better cavedivers than I'd ever be.

 

[sabbath999]

My guess after you thumbed that dive is you are on the road to or have already found out the most important gear you have is also between your ears.

Gear is just gear, we dive what we dive because sometimes less is just plain more. The only bit of kit that I have on that isn't "really" necessary for OW is the 7 foot hoses (everything else is necessary, got to have a backup secondary whether it is a traditional octo, bungied secondary or Air2, for OW that's just a matter of personal preference). We dive hog rigs because, frankly, we feel that's the minimum necessary to do the job and we both find them comfortable... I dive a SS backplate because it takes 10 pounds of weight off the belt (which can be a pretty big deal for me when I dive dry), and because it keeps the 120 LP steels I dive more steady, etc. I wasn't trying to say gear makes the diver, it doesn't. We just get a lot of odd looks from the locals in their jacket BC's.

Everybody can decide for themselves what gear works best for them, this is what we like.

 

[Blackwood]

From here, and from other reading, I'd gotten the impression that cave divers were very meticulous about following safety rules.

I think that judging the dive community or its various subsets by those who are active on webforums may lead you astray.

 

[sabbath999]

I think that judging the dive community or its various subsets by those who are active on webforums may lead you astray.

Well, since we have personally dove with several people who are on this forum and know that they actually are in person as they appear online, I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that at least some others online are as they are in real life.

Additionally, we have been reading about everything we can find published on cave diving, and what we are reading is markedly different than what we were seeing at least in SOME individuals. Not painting with a broad brush here, just talking about those folks who were trying to talk us into "going for it" even though we were not trained or equipped to do so.

 

[BioLogic]

First of all, good call.

Secondly, while the rules are there for good reasons, there are situations where the rules are overkill (we discussed this with reference to diving on a flat bottom with no instruments in another thread). Unfortunately, the knowledge of when and where the rules might be reasonably broken is only gained through experience (and luck) or training and practice and a little less experience (and a little less luck).

You've got to weigh the potential costs against the possible gains ... I think you made the right choice, but then I do not cave dive ... I've lost too many friends who were better cavedivers than I'd ever be.

That's the thing -- I'm not a blind rule follower, and it's true some of what they were suggesting sounded well within our capabilities; even our comfort zone. But we're too new to the cave thing to have our own judgement about what's safe be dependable, and I'd rather trust the collective judgment of the certifying agencies than Some Random Guy who happened to be at our dive site.

I was just surprised that four times in as many days we got such advice. But then I was surprised to return to my first line on a second dive to discover somebody had tied off on top of it and we had to cut and retie our line to get it back too -- silly peoples.