Riviera Beach Florida Fatality

[Earl Grey]

I can see where DD is coming from. For a Captain, it has to be an agonizing decision, that is to make the choice of risking the living at the very slim chance to save the dying.

Here are some interesting statistics from the AHA...
"It’s estimated that about 95 percent of sudden cardiac arrest victims die before reaching the hospital."

"Survival is directly linked to the amount of time between the onset of sudden cardiac arrest and defibrillation. If no bystander CPR is provided, a victim’s chances of survival are reduced by 7 to 10 percent with every minute of delay until defibrillation."

"The VF sudden cardiac arrest survival rate is only two to five percent if defibrillation is provided more than 12 minutes after collapse."

"In some cities with public access defibrillation or “community AED programs,” when bystanders provide immediate CPR and the first shock is delivered within 3 to 5 minutes, the reported survival rates from VF sudden cardiac arrest are as high as 48 to 74 percent."

So in the case of an MI, really the only real chance the for survival is to have an AED aboard the vessel. An AED seems like an essential piece of safety gear for a commercial dive op. For 2K, no commercial vessel should leave the dock with out one.

While some may suspect cardiac arrest, has the autopsy result been disclosed?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Please excuse me if I am being dense. The initial report seemed to indicate an AED was utilized on the decedent by the Narcosis crew.

Clarification was sought when the question was asked if there was an AED on the vessel Narcosis. Rather than a direct answer, subsequent discussion centered on the cost of such a device.

Was there an AED device onboard the Narcosis vessel and was it used by its crew during the desperate rescue attempt?

 

[danvolker]

Please excuse me if I am being dense. The initial report seemed to indicate an AED was utilized on the decedent by the Narcosis crew.

Clarification was sought when the question was asked if there was an AED on the vessel Narcosis. Rather than a direct answer, subsequent discussion centered on the cost of such a device.

Was there an AED device onboard the Narcosis vessel and was it used by its crew during the desperate rescue attempt?

I actually saw the crew of the Narcosis taking the training on AED's about 8 months ago, so my expectation is that the initial report of the AED on board should be accurate. Any of the major dive boats in Palm beach could afford the AED.
I still question whether it is absurd to "mandate" this, because this would begin another cascade of the public expecting to be taken care of by others, and many more mandated safety measures or expensive medical equipment.
Maybe we should mandate a Magnetic resonance Machine to look for barotrauma or vascular tears from possible embolisms.
Each of us needs to take care of themselves nutritionally and with exercise, and each of us is responsible for our health when we engage in snow skiing, cycling, rock climbing, kayaking, or scuba diving. When I go Kayaking, there is not going to be an AED device anywhere if someone screws up and gets sucked into a hydraulic. I suppose the outfitter should have an AED station next to every class three or class four rapid, just in case of a drowning event?

Diving is not watching TV. It should be an adventure sport, like kayaking.



Leaving this particular case...and generalizing to the entire American diving population......

For the typical accident where the AED is needed, better dive training would have been the best way to protect the life, and the AED would be the ignorant path of trying to fix something that should have never been broken. I don't buy that unknown heart conditions are the principle need for AED's....I think the drowning events must be far more prevalent.....and if in fact the heart conditions are more prevalent, then the agencies are retarded for not mandating real cardio exams at intervals every few years.... I am not pushing for this either, because I keep myself healthy and fit, and would have nothing but disdain for forced medical exams...I would sign the release instead.


Better dive training, meaning better instructors, and better mandatory skills and real testing is needed... and far more mandated skills in the ocean for ANY diver with any level of certification.
This would also mean recognizing the students who are actually "Never-Evers", and NOT giving them a c-card. I have seen so many Never-evers on boats from Palm beach to Key Largo, it is shocking to me that we don't have a dozen new dead divers every week. Instead, boat crews get launched into weekly heroics, that are forced on them by the poor instructional guidelines mandated by an economy driven certification system( that should be skills driven).

 

[Reck Diver]

...Was there an AED device onboard the Narcosis vessel and was it used by its crew during the desperate rescue attempt?

I am told that the Narcosis is not equipped with an AED. Defibrillation was initiated by EMS at the dock.

from the Narcosis web site: Scuba Diving West Palm Beach Florida with Narcosis Dive Charters
"We have an onboard Portable Emergency Marine Oxygen supply. The Captain and all crew members are certified to perform emergency CPR and/or administer oxygen if needed." no mention of an AED.

 

[danvolker]

As an expert diver and cardiologist... do you think large, commercial dive boats should carry an AED as standard safety equipment?

According to Pura vida ( a Dive shop that books Narcosis), there is one boat in Palm Beach that DOES have a AED, and that is Narcosis.

Also.....The Coast Guard sets the safety regulations.

I think you and ReckDiver should not dive on any boats without AED's...and I will dive on any boat that I enjoy diving on

Also..when I go mountain biking there will be no AED's around, and real mountain bikers don't care....When I go Kayaking, there are no AEDs around, and no one kayaking cares....
If you do adventure sports, if you see yourself as an adventurer, you will not be choosing your trip by presence of AED's...However, if you are someone that might be better off with one of those "alert necklaces" ( Help, I've fallen and I can't get up" ), then the seeking of a dive boat with an AED may make sense. I would still say that the smarter course of action would be either changing your fitness, your skill level, or choosing NOT to dive.

 

[Reef_Haven]

Sandy has a AED on her boat. They attempted to use it on a female diver last year. I believe it indicated "No shock advised".

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...ty-claims-utah-woman-florida.html#post6075942

Leaving the remaining divers to drift is standard protocol in West Palm by most operators. There simply can't be a recall on drift dives.

 

[KARLUG]

Maybe it sounds ignorant, if the activity of Diving was something for the 99% majority of the masses.

That is NOT how I see diving.
I got into diving in 1972 as an adventure sport.
At the same time, I was a ski racer specializing in downhill and GS. In the late 70's I added white water kayaking and hang gliding. I taught myself how to kayak and how to handglide from reading some books on it, and this is how I learned to Speedskate rollerblade, the first year rollerblades cameout …..
Mountain biking just came naturally.
The point being, there are those of us that do want adventure, and we seek it out. The people that like real adventure sports, look at the challenge and the danger, and they determine for themselves, what the best way is to enjoy the activity. We figure out how to be safe for ourselves, and what safety gear we need. We figure this out. Not the government.......I do not want some pencil neck geek bureaucrat telling me what safety gear I need for ANY adventure sport I engage in.


If suddenly we heard that an under water pyramid had been discovered off of Mona island, in a remote part of the Mona passage...and in our window of opportunity to dive this site, only a small local fishing boat could be used....I would see this as an “ultimate adventure dive”.
If a diver was to tell me I should not go on this trip without the fishing boat having an AED,or a team of doctors standing by, I would not concern myself with their opinion, because they are a different type of diver...they are NOT an adventure diver.
Whether they are a yuppie diver, or a dependant diver, whatever they are, I am thrilled they want to enjoy diving, but I would be pissed if they try to mandate their highly dependent sense of support to all dives I might want to engage in.


Today, AED's are expensive. Boat operators are forced to charge low rates, so that divers will be able to afford to go out every week. Margins are slim. AED's could be a severe hardship for some boats—boats which really are great dive operations. This is not much of an issue to Palm Beach boats...if the Coast Guard mandated it, they could all afford this, and would all have the AED's.

In the entire state of florida though,I am sure several boats would be severely pressed to handle this cost. The reality is that there are new costs every week for a diveboat, always a repair, always a cost not planned on, and there is no end in sight. I don't want to mandate this as a potential hardship on boats.... If some boats like Narcosis want to pay for the AED and the training for the crew, fine....apparently most divers don't give a hoot about this, as it's been almost 8 months since the crew got trained to use the AED, and NO groundswell of diver interest has shown that any of the divers in this area care at all about which boats have this, and which don't.


So I would be happy to help spread the word about which boats have AED's, as new boats add the AED to their boat assets....but I would be 100% against mandating that all boats have this.
We don't need to be saved from ourselves, and we don't need to be forced into doing what someone else decides is safe for us. This should be personal responsibility.


And any time I ever wanted O2 to be on the boat, I brought my own! ( not saying I have a problem with the tiny cost of a boat having O2 aboard....just saying, it is SO EASY for a diver to have their own O2, that if this is important to them,then why RELY on others for it!

As I stated in several other posts, my wife and I were diving on the Narcosis the day of the accident and got "stranded" for about 20 minutes before being picked up by another boat. As I said before, I believe that the Captain did the right thing by heading quickly into shore to get help for the victim. There were several boats and I knew that we would be picked up. You guys probably know how stories can vary and be inaccurate but I was told that this victim got treatment with the AED that Narcosis had on the boat. They also stated that they had to shave the gentlemans chest to make a good
positive contact with the AED. I may have misunderstood but I think this was the case. This is my 2 cents worth. Just hate to see Narcosis getting a bad "rap" for an accident that was out of their control.

---------- Post Merged at 02:13 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:07 PM ----------

As I stated in several other posts, my wife and I were diving on the Narcosis the day of the accident and got "stranded" for about 20 minutes before being picked up by another boat. As I said before, I believe that the Captain did the right thing by heading quickly into shore to get help for the victim. There were several boats and I knew that we would be picked up. You guys probably know how stories can vary and be inaccurate but I was told that this victim got treatment with the AED that Narcosis had on the boat. They also stated that they had to shave the gentlemans chest to make a good
positive contact with the AED. I may have misunderstood but I think this was the case. This is my 2 cents worth. Just hate to see Narcosis getting a bad "rap" for an accident that was out of their control.

p.s. I know that you guys will probably do this anyway, but if anyone finds out the results of the autopsy, please post. I like most, are very interested in finding out the cause of this fatality. This was a very sad day.

 

[Scott L]

Dan: I never expressed the opinion that every charter boat should have an AED on it. I only said that my one friend carries one on his boat. It seems that you are trying to mischaracterize my statements.
In the post below you say the following:

This, I would believe.

 

[danvolker]

Originally Posted by dumpsterDiver
Dan: I never expressed the opinion that every charter boat should have an AED on it. I only said that my one friend carries one on his boat. It seems that you are trying to mischaracterize my statements.
In the post below you say the following:

This, I would believe.

Wow....Can you imagine how it pains me to have DD think I would ever attempt to mischaracterize his statements ?
Besides, he does a good enough job of this without me

 

[danvolker]

Just for the record, I'm not advocating for mandating every boat to have one but I think they are a great idea because you are sometimes very far away from shore and it is a timing issue. I would love to see more boats carry them but mandating it? No

They make perfect sense.

Then you and I are in agreement on this. I think it is cool that Narcosis has one....and I was happy to be trained in how to use one.
But hopefully I will never be in a position where I have to use one for real. I could see practicing on Dumpster Diver though...."...now you are just going to feel a little jolt "