RTSC Standards addition - what do 'ya think?

[MXGratefulDiver]

Not to pick nits or anything ... but it's RSTC, not RTSC.

As for the issue you're addressing, while I totally agree that good buoyancy control should be emphasized more vigorously in OW than is currently the case, I think it'd be tough to enforce on an industry-wide scale ... given that the industry seems to be headed toward less skills requirements, rather than more. Sadly, I believe this is controlled more by what people want to pay for than by any real concern for keeping the standards at a safe and conscientious level.

I think a more effective approach would be to encourage anyone thinking to take lessons to interview instructors and their prior students ... and stay away from those who don't teach basic skills. Ultimately it's the consumer who decides where this (or any other) market will go in terms of quality control.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Genesis]

and unfortunately you can interview people all you want, but what you GET is often not what you are SOLD!

That's the problem - if I can interview a shop/instructor and end up with the people doing the class getting THIS, imagine what people who are NOT divers get when THEY interview without knowing what they're asking for!

What's wrong with a standard with defined requirements to "pass"?

Why resistance to such a thing?

Do you not believe that the standard I proposed is a minimum for safe open-water diving?

 

[CBulla]

Risking horrible reprocussions, I do agree that the skill is something that needs to be taught without weighing the student down and definitely something that needs to be worked on, hence the use of a pool to work on skills.

A controlled environment for the OW class is good to (mine was done in a small pond/lake that was 46' deep in the middle and reasonable visibility) since it provides the student and instructor with more depth than a pool and the ability to better work on skills such as bouyancy without breaking the surface. I know this isn't always an option, but something as food for thought.

I know I was required to demonstrate the first two in your list of requrements, the last may be a bit tough for a new diver who is just getting used to their underwater equilibrium.

-Timing the safety stop and monitoring its depth is the responsibility of the student.

That part I can totally see and support it as a confidence building technique. The rest in that statement will occur over time as confidence and skills are built and I totally support it for AOW.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Genesis once bubbled...
What's wrong with a standard with defined requirements to "pass"?

Nothing ... the devil's in the details. The RSTC is the scuba equivalent of the United Nations. Getting the agencies to agree on something like this may be desireable ... might even be necessary ... but it's also not likely.

Why resistance to such a thing?

Resistance from whom? Not me ... not even most instructors I know. I think we can all agree that buoyancy control is perhaps the single most important (and difficult) basic skill for the new diver to master. A measureable standard would be a good thing.

Do you not believe that the standard I proposed is a minimum for safe open-water diving?

Absolutely! I'm just skeptical that sending a petition to the RSTC would have any measureable impact toward making it happen. Agencies are moving in the other direction for a reason ... and it's not because they believe these skills aren't important. It's because the market (i.e. the people who are signing up for lessons) want easy and cheap ... and in a free market society if you don't give the consumer what the consumer wants, someone else will.

I ain't saying it's right ... frankly I don't think that it is. I'm saying that this is how a self-regulated industry works in a free-market society. Those who want higher-quality product pay extra money for it ... typically those are called "niche markets" and only represent a minor fraction of the overall demand for any given product.

In the end, it boils down to money and market share. That's why I believe that the solution to the problem will be found not at the agency level, but within the conscience of every instructor out there who believes that the only way to provide a quality service is to demand more of themselves than the RSTC and the agency for whom they're teaching demands of them.

The only other option is stricter (perhaps government-controlled) regulation of training standards ... and that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Genesis]

I know I was required to demonstrate the first two in your list of requrements, the last may be a bit tough for a new diver who is just getting used to their underwater equilibrium.

-Timing the safety stop and monitoring its depth is the responsibility of the student.

An OW card is sold to divers as certification that they are competent to dive with other OW divers of unknown skill sets, within their training and experience, in conditions equal or better than that under which they were trained.

The day after the card issued.

Ok, that's what my g/f and her daughter were sold.

It is not what they got. I know what they got, because I've now dove with both of them.

Neither of them is skilled enough to dive on their own. If they went in as "buddies" one of them would likely end up bent or worse, or perhaps, they BOTH would!

BOTH are ok diving with me, but then again, I've got three digits on my "number of dives" counter.

They will be competent in short order, but they are not today, and that is the point of this exercise and, at the end of the day, the issue.

But again, these two weren't sold a "learner's permit", only to be practiced in the presence of someone who has been at it for a while. That's what you get in a resort course! You can dive in the presence and under the supervision of a professional - a DM.

The problem here is that the standards are too loosey-goosey. They permit an instructor to claim that a student "meets the test" without specifying what the test IS!

That's not good enough for mask skills, why is it good enough for buoyancy control? To "pass" mask skills you have to do a partial flood, full flood, and remove and replace. In the pool, and in open water. Can't do it, you don't pass. There is no "loosey goosey" in the rules there.

I'd argue that the standard I proposed - ALL of it - is an absolute minimum. Can you GUARANTEE that you will get back to the anchor or upline on every dive? Of course not. Can you GUARANTEE that others won't be on that line, forcing you to leave it on your ascent or decent, even if momentarily? Of course not. Hand-over-hand to the top and bottom, and relying on hard bottom so you don't silt the bejeezus out of the site, thereby making the site unsafe (not to mention unpleasant) for EVERYONE down there (they can't see in zero vis any more than you can!) is NOT safe.

Monitoring depth and time, and ascent rate, is a basic dive skill. How can you plan your dive and dive your plan if you can't use a watch and depth gauge? Confidence builder? Hell no - its a basic required skill! Yet I saw this class led with students not being required to have on their person a timing device. At least they all had depth gauges, but probably only because they were on the rental reg sets the students (other than my g/f!) were using!

I'm confused here... why is there resistance to this being a minimum standard for buoyancy control among the agencies?

 

[Charlie99]

Can some instructors jump in here and tell what the PADI, NAUI, SSI, etc. standards are today?

I don't want to know what YOU do. The question is what does the STANDARD SAY.

I suspect that what you saw Genesis was a gross violation of both letter and spirit of the SSI standards. Adding more standards won't help much.

In my 2-1/2 day PADI OW we did all of the items you mentioned, except that the 15' stop was abbreviated to 1 minute since our max depth was only 25'. We also repeated the 15' to 0' ascent several times for practice ----- having seen many divers blow their final 15' of ascent I now really appreciate the wisdom of my OW instructor in having me do this critical portion multiple times.