scooter recommendation please

[gitterdun]

Suex.

They're really good.

I concur, hands down.

Suex offers scooters for any type of diver (eg. Rec, Tech, Exploration, Navy).

 

[scubahawk27]

I agree with Hickdives comment, you need two scooters to even begin to be safe. I have six of them and always take my wife as my DM buddy. Everything is greatly accelerated and your problems can be accelerated.


Greg Walker
Maui Scooter Divers
www.mauiscooterdivers.com

 

[PfcAJ]

While I do think the magnetic prop of the genesis is neat, I wonder how much power loss there is compared to a shaft-driven prop.

The old mako style adjustable pitch props are certainly the weak link of scooters that use them. Suex uses a fixed pitch prop that's removable underwater by just unscrewing the retainer. It's slick. They're also latchless, and I find the two speed trigger to be immensely handy. The trigger on the genesis has a delay which drives me batty. There's also a plug on the nose of the genesis that's critical. If it's lost, the scooter is done. That doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

The genesis magnetic prop is sweet, but that's not enough to overshadow the other drawbacks IMO.

 

[KaizerWilhelm]

Give me a call or email at sales@dive-xtras.com. I can give you all the information you need to help you make a good decision about which unit is right for you.

Suex does make decent things, but they're very old school tech. Genesis is very cool, high tech, decent amount of power, but the barrier to entry is SUPER high. $6700 for a 600wh scooter is outrageous...even with all the fancy bits.

I'm biased, but I'm more concerned with you getting a scooter that will best fit your needs even if it's not one of mine!

 

[Jon Nellis]

While I do think the magnetic prop of the genesis is neat, I wonder how much power loss there is compared to a shaft-driven prop.

There is less power loss from the magnetic coupling compared to a standard shaft seal and it does not change with depth like a standard carbon/ceramic shaft seal does. The shaft seal has two circular flat faces that slide on each other, that are forced together with a spring plus the pressure differential across the seal. Shaft seals are like a small disc brakes and the deeper you go, the more clamping pressure the two faces see, creating more drag. That kind of shaft seal is designed for use on continuously running pumps, as the break away friction at depth from a stop is significant and why at least one manufacturer has to glue their seals into the housing, to prevent it from spinning the static rubber seal on the back side of the ceramic. They were never designed for the constant starting and stopping of a scooter. Carbon/ceramic shaft seals are used because they are inexpensive and can tolerate a bit of misalignment, but they are also the most likely source of catastrophic failure (flooding) on a scooter.

The trigger on the genesis has a delay which drives me batty. There's also a plug on the nose of the genesis that's critical. If it's lost, the scooter is done. That doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

The genesis magnetic prop is sweet, but that's not enough to overshadow the other drawbacks IMO.

There is a less than 1/2 second delay when you hit the trigger before the propeller RPM start to ramp up. Some people are used to scooters that start up at full speed, but at the full 90lbs of thrust, you really don't want the sudden shock to your crotch strap.

The cover for the recharge plug on the nose is what turns the scooter on and off (basically, the ignition key). While a few customers have expressed concern about losing it, no one has ever actually lost one yet. They simply plug it into three of the six pins on the connector when they want to disable the scooter. When diving in salt water, if you do forget the plug back at the hotel (I did it once in Bonaire) the conductivity of the salt water will still enable the motor controller and you can dive it without the plug installed. Just don't do it on a regular basis, or the pins will corrode a bit. In fresh water (mainly cave diving) the scooter will only work with the plug installed, in case the scooter runs away and cannot be shut down by either letting go of the trigger or turning the speed down to zero, you can still disable it by removing the nose plug. The nose plug allows you to recharge or store the scooter without opening it and risking getting debris in the seals or otherwise damaging them when opening and closing. Since PfcAJ has only borrowed a Genesis from the local dealer for a day, he has never experienced the simplicity of going on a two week trip and never opening the scooter to recharge or disconnect the batteries to prevent them from continuing to drain when not in use, since all the scooters that use motor controllers, instead of relays, continue to suck power from the battery when not in use and will eventually over discharge the battery and destroy it if left connected long enough.

Since the Genesis is not exactly an "average" priced scooter that the OP is looking for and importing one to France definitely does not decrease the cost, it is likely not the answer they are looking for. I'd suggest the OP check out THIS thread and try as many different scooters as they can get their hands on before making a decision.

Cheers,
Jon

 

[Dr. Lecter]

While I do think the magnetic prop of the genesis is neat, I wonder how much power loss there is compared to a shaft-driven prop.

The old mako style adjustable pitch props are certainly the weak link of scooters that use them. Suex uses a fixed pitch prop that's removable underwater by just unscrewing the retainer. It's slick. They're also latchless, and I find the two speed trigger to be immensely handy. The trigger on the genesis has a delay which drives me batty. There's also a plug on the nose of the genesis that's critical. If it's lost, the scooter is done. That doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

The genesis magnetic prop is sweet, but that's not enough to overshadow the other drawbacks IMO.

I've got more thurst and range in my tiny 600 than any non-Genesis scooter aside from a Cuda Fury or a $12,000 beefed up SS Magnus...the Genesis is more power efficient, not less, and the prop coupling has nothing to do with any of it.

The delay is intentional, to reduce how much jerk you're experiencing at the crotch when up to 90lbs of thrust kicks in. That being said, I agree it's annoying. I'd like to see it scale in direct proportion to how much the throttle is forward, but in the meantime it's not a big deal. Maybe Jon would be willing to make a unit without it...I dunno. There's also the infinitely adjustable speed control on the Genesis...really nice inside wrecks or speed-matching, but less awesome for nailing a given power consumption rate.

Losing a plug on a dive would be...kind of like saying that if you unlatched your scooter's hull latches underwater, it's done. Except pulling the plug underwater would require more work. If you're worried about losing the plug top-side, it's not that hard to keep it attached to the scooter. And that plug design allows for (1) completely de-powering the DPV underwater if it goes nuts on you, and (2) never having to open the body to charge it. I'll take having to carry a spare plug and/or keep track of the only one I have for those advantages.

The complete lack of much of anything that can go wrong, break, or need service on a Genesis is what's sweet. The fact you can pop out your prop is just icing on the cake.

---------- Post added July 10th, 2014 at 02:49 PM ----------

Genesis is very cool, high tech, decent amount of power, but the barrier to entry is SUPER high. $6700 for a 600wh scooter is outrageous...even with all the fancy bits.

If you'd like to identify another DPV with more power at or below the 600's price point, that'd be just super. Because TBM 2011 numbers say it's between the Genesis 600 and the Cuda Fury for thrust. For range at cruise, it was the Genesis 1200 (7.8), the Cuda Fury (5.8), and the Genesis 600 (5.6) topping the list. Ditto on max speed results. All of these, plus the SS scooters, use expensive Lithium battery tech, and of them all the Genesis do more per wh than any others.

 

[PfcAJ]

Popping a latch underwater isn't a big deal, the pressure keeps the scooter sealed. Upon surfacing though, water would get in almost for sure. I think a latchless design is better, though.

The argument for the delay is something I don't buy. Long-hauls are more my thing, and running one of the modern scooters wide open for any length of time sucks. Therefor a delay is just a nuisance when navigating small areas or in low visibility at more modest speeds.

Interesting comments about the efficiency of the magnetic prop. John, what's the runtime @150ft/min min for a diver in doubles with all the technical accoutrements?

 

[Jon Nellis]

The argument for the delay is something I don't buy. Long-hauls are more my thing, and running one of the modern scooters wide open for any length of time sucks. Therefor a delay is just a nuisance when navigating small areas or in low visibility at more modest speeds.

The delay is due to the ramp up programing in the controller. When I run the scooter, I just lock the trigger ON and control my speed with the speed lever, so I never experience the little delay other then the first time I pull the trigger. Divers who are used to blipping the trigger on other scooters to navigate tights spaces don't realize it is much more fluid and controlled to just turn the speed down to swim speed (50-60fpm) instead of giving it short, jerky blasts that are more likely to silt out the cave. But then most other scooters cannot easily be adjusted to go as slow as the Genesis. The low speed is often more useful than the high speed. (Genesis legal disclaimer... ALWAYS lock the trigger OFF and turn the speed lever to zero whenever you take your hand off the control handle.)

Interesting comments about the efficiency of the magnetic prop. John, what's the runtime @150ft/min min for a diver in doubles with all the technical accoutrements?

I'd figure a 3 hour runtime for full tech gear (I'm 5'8" and 160lbs) and then cut that back a bit if the diver is extra large or hauling extra stages. And just like breathing gas in caves, save the last 1/3 of the battery for towing your buddy home or a reg failure/gas loss in the back of the cave, where you just want to firewall it to the exit.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Not sure how it correlates with the 3hr runtime Jon cites, but TBM 2011's tech (drysuit, BP&W, OC doubles, AL80 slung stage filled with 3000psi EAN50) test results were 5.7 miles at 150'/minute and 2.1 miles at max speed of 243'/min for the 1200. A 600 wasn't tested due to time constraints, but should be about half those figures.

 

[mathauck0814]

Big fan of the Cuda 400 that I've been using for a while now. My purposes are very different than the OPs though, so I could see it not being a great scooter for him. I've tried a few others, including the Genesis 600. I don't have those scooters for various reasons.