Scuba Diving magazine

[DiverBuoy]

If you were trained to DIR level and all you ever did was dive Recreational depths and environments, I wonder if you'd ever die from any cause other than medical, and even on the latter cause, it will likely be reduced due to higher requirements on good health.

 

[King Kong Matt]

Genesis once bubbled...
It is a gross misrepresentation of reality to cast WKPP as "demonstrative" of DIR or GUE. Its NOT. It is a special case under special circumstances.

How can the WKPP (I am NOT talking about GUE here) be not demonstrative of DIR when the director and his dive buddy basically created the concept as it exists in its present form?

It seems like you want to take the one thing that the WKPP claims as an advantage OUT of the equation and then say "Look...its no different than anyone else".

THEY WOULD PROBABLY AGREE...yes, if you rip out their support team, and their protocols, and the funding that makes a highly uniform team act with a unified set of responses...then yes, their record would be no different than anyone else's.

Basically, you seem to be saying that "if you take away the things that specifically differentiate DIR from other diving philosophies, you get a record that is not that impressive."

OK, but that's hardly a fair analysis...

 

[Genesis]

If you were trained to DIR level and all you ever did was dive Recreational depths and environments, I wonder if you'd ever die from any cause other than medical, and even on the latter cause, it will likely be reduced due to higher requirements on good health.

Really?

The diver at Ginnie who was GUE-cave-trained and died due to an apparent tox hit still made an (apparent) mistake.

Johnathan (GUE-trained) made an apparent mistake (allegedly diving against medical advice)

In fact, as I've pointed out, its NOT the training level or quality, virtually ALL of the time. Its either a medical problem or someone doing something that is EXPLICITLY outside their training.

How does GUE change this?

They don't.

They can't.

Any claim to the contrary is specious at best, and intentionally dishonest at worst.

 

[Genesis]

How can the WKPP (I am NOT talking about GUE here) be not demonstrative of DIR when the director and his dive buddy basically created the concept as it exists in its present form?

It seems like you want to take the one thing that the WKPP claims as an advantage OUT of the equation and then say "Look...its no different than anyone else".

THEY WOULD PROBABLY AGREE...yes, if you rip out their support team, and their protocols, and the funding that makes a highly uniform team act with a unified set of responses...then yes, their record would be no different than anyone else's.

Basically, you seem to be saying that "if you take away the things that specifically differentiate DIR from other diving philosophies, you get a record that is not that impressive."

OK, but that's hardly a fair analysis...

Since GUE is not training people just to dive for the WKPP!

Nor is it REASONABLE to expect that all diving by GUE divers will be done under the funding, protocol and support that the WKPP uses.

In fact, it is EXPLICITLY the case that with the SOLE exception of the WKPP (and a few other "sponsored" pieces of work like the Britannic expedition), I bet that almost NO GUE-trained divers use those protocols, have that kind of funding, or that sort of support!

It is simply dishonest in the extreme to claim the WKPP's record as demonstrative of what GUE's training produces. IT DOES NOT!

Look, the death that GI3 got control of WKPP as a consequence of a death wasn't reasonably forseeable by ANYONE. The collapse of a cave itself is something that NOBODY can reasonably anticipate or do anything about once it happens. If GI3 was in charge when that happened, the diver would have died on his watch. That's a fact, and no amount of claiming DIR "superiority" changes this. What - DIR and GUE suddenly are going to make a cave "un-collapse"?!

Be just a BIT objective guys.... the Kool-Aid isn't THAT good.

 

[SeaJay]

Genesis once bubbled...

Most of the time divers die due to one of two reasons:

1. They do something stupid, or a combination of things that are stupid, underwater.

OR

2. They have some kind of medical emergency underwater from which nobody would be reasonably expected to survive. In many cases there is no prior warning and no REASONABLE way (that is, without expensive, invasive - and dangerous - tests) to know that they were at risk), but in some they are diving explicitly against medical advice.

MHK, care to share with our buddy what you shared with us in class about so many "heart attacks" underwater?