ScubaPro not Allowing Testing of Products

[Quarrior]

Greg,

Nicely written and thanks for the information.

Brian

 

[strondbakken]

Very eloquent Greg. Allow me to extend my apologies to Rodale's for any misinformation I had recieved and (foolishly) passed on. Sometimes my wits don't work the way I'd like them to when it comes to seeing that there are always two sides to every story.

 

[aquaoren]

One bit of info for those who have an interest....While I held my editorial position at Rodale's I was responsible to Senior Editor David Taylor. David left the mag some time ago to venture into other facets of the diving industry. Short and simple, he is a class act. While Dave was in charge he had one simple rule that was NEVER allowed to be altered...NO GIFTS ARE ALLOWED TO BE ACCEPTED BY ANY OF THE STAFF. Every piece of gear submitted by the manufacturers was inventoried, evaluated, and returned to the corporations. I had to keep accurate records along with FedEx receipts showing when items were shipped and to their contents.

As far as ScubaPro employees or anyone else wanting to provide documentation that this policy was not strictly adhered to during Dave's tenure, then put it in print. I'm certain that the mag's attorneys would love to see that written on a coroporate letterhead. I can't speak for the mag after Dave and I left, but I do know what the policy was during that time period. For example, being actively involved in technical diving research, Jarod Jablonski sent me a complimentary copy of the Fundamentals of DIR . I read it twice, spoke to Jarod on at least three different occasions concerning my perspective of its contents (I was greatly impressed), and wrote my review. Well, I told Jarod that I'd like to charge its cost to my credit card. Jarod told me to please keep it as a gift for my time. I explained to him the policy and he said that he completely understood. By the way, Jarod is another class act. You may or may not adhere to the DIR approach, but he is a real nice guy.

Sherwood, along with some other companies, has over the years claimed that Rodale's reg tests were filled with incorrect breathing simulator scores. Hummmmm....Take the time to compare the scores from the mag DIVER at www.divernet.com. Correspond with some German divers and ask them to share the ANSTI simulator scores from their country's mag Undertasser. They are for the most part virtually identical.

Subjective testing protocols are not very scientific, even when you try to control the variables. Being of a scientific nature, I trust simulator scores when comparing "apples to apples". Sure, the erogonomics and breathing patterns can be loosely compared, but they are far from being capable of standing on their own merits.

Also, some of you may remember the hoopla over the article I wrote on comparing the various teaching materials used in open water courses from the different agencies. Some agencies were, shall I say a bit pi**ed off. Funny, though, some of my recommendations came up in later teaching materials. I can't claim the credit, but I ALWAYS called a spade a spade. Dave wouldn't let it be any other way.

Greg

Greg,
Thank you very much for the information how the tests were conducted.
It is always interesting to hear from the people with the "backstage pass".
Just one correction: The German mag is called Unterwasser
Since I'm from Germany I can really confirm that the test results that both German diving magazines Unterwasser and the bigger one Tauchen (The biggest in Europe) come to the same results as the British Diver and Rodale's
One of the German mags actually made a very interesting reg test. They tested a bunch of regs brand new and used them for their purposes for a year(same amount of diving hours) and tested them again to see whether there are any changes in the performance. They called it a long time test.
I thought it was a very smart idea because it is interesting to know whether there is a decline in performance when using your reg.
Oren

 

[Greg Barlow]

Greg,
Just one correction: The German mag is called Unterwasser
Since I'm from Germany I can really confirm that the test results that both German diving magazines Unterwasser and the bigger one Tauchen (The biggest in Europe) come to the same results as the British Diver and Rodale's
One of the German mags actually made a very interesting reg test. They tested a bunch of regs brand new and used them for their purposes for a year(same amount of diving hours) and tested them again to see whether there are any changes in the performance. They called it a long time test.
I thought it was a very smart idea because it is interesting to know whether there is a decline in performance when using your reg.
Oren

Oren,

I apologize for my "butchering" of the Unterwasser title and of your native language. The long term evaluation is an outstanding idea, and I would love to see the results. Would you be able to obtain a copy and translate it into English?

I believe that nearly everyone wants to think that their gear purchases are based upon wise decisions. Seldom does anyone want to hear about their choices not doing well in testing. Well, we also must decided if we truly do need the "best" for our diving needs. For example, I've used Mares regs for many years. I have unlimited access to parts, and in fact have enough spare parts to keep my many regs in service for a couple of decades if need be. Well, I'm not going to say that Mares regs are the best in the industry. They are robust, reliable, and offer more gas flow than what a diver can anatomically use. They don't have the user adjustability (that several lines offer that allowing fine tuning per the dive conditions), but are stable and offer smooth gas delivery.

That said, I've ordered a new Apeks TX50/DS4. I've not given up on my Mares regs, I've merely decided to give the TX50 an opportunity for my own "extended testing". I believe that if one has a closed mind, then you limited yourself to your own comfort level.

There are many regs on the market that are very good to outstanding. I'd be willing to bet that a simple one such as a Mares R2 Axis (unbalanced piston first stage) can more than adequately meet the needs of 80% of the world's divers. I used to quote 90%, but the number of technical divers has grown subastantially.

Once again, thanks for the correction and interesting information.

Greg

 

[Greg Barlow]

Very eloquent Greg. Allow me to extend my apologies to Rodale's for any misinformation I had recieved and (foolishly) passed on. Sometimes my wits don't work the way I'd like them to when it comes to seeing that there are always two sides to every story.

No problem...I've done the same type of thing more times than I like to admit.

Greg

 

[Greg Barlow]

Greg,

Nicely written and thanks for the information.

Brian

Thanks. I appreciate the comment.

Greg

 

[aquaoren]

Oren,

I apologize for my "butchering" of the Unterwasser title and of your native language. The long term evaluation is an outstanding idea, and I would love to see the results. Would you be able to obtain a copy and translate it into English?

I believe that nearly everyone wants to think that their gear purchases are based upon wise decisions. Seldom does anyone want to hear about their choices not doing well in testing. Well, we also must decided if we truly do need the "best" for our diving needs. For example, I've used Mares regs for many years. I have unlimited access to parts, and in fact have enough spare parts to keep my many regs in service for a couple of decades if need be. Well, I'm not going to say that Mares regs are the best in the industry. They are robust, reliable, and offer more gas flow than what a diver can anatomically use. They don't have the user adjustability (that several lines offer that allowing fine tuning per the dive conditions), but are stable and offer smooth gas delivery.

That said, I've ordered a new Apeks TX50/DS4. I've not given up on my Mares regs, I've merely decided to give the TX50 an opportunity for my own "extended testing". I believe that if one has a closed mind, then you limited yourself to your own comfort level.

There are many regs on the market that are very good to outstanding. I'd be willing to bet that a simple one such as a Mares R2 Axis (unbalanced piston first stage) can more than adequately meet the needs of 80% of the world's divers. I used to quote 90%, but the number of technical divers has grown subastantially.

Once again, thanks for the correction and interesting information.

Greg

Hi Greg,
I couldn't care less for butchering the German language, It's only a language and since you gave us so much insight in the testing and your post was so informative, I wanted your information to be as correct as possible
I have the issue of the mag with the test but I just moved and it is in one of the boxes with all the mags.
This test made me buy the Mares Abyss instead of the Apeks TX100. If I will find it, I'll translate the results and post them.
Since buying the Abyss, I never regreted it because as you said they are reliable and robust. I like solid things and the abyss is really solid
I agree with you that most high performance regs regardless the name that is printed on them are good nowdays and most divers will not even feel the difference in the breathing effort. It comes down to personal preferences and believieng what ads are saying as well as instructor recommendation (Which somethimes have their own agenda )
Oren

 

[aquaoren]

Hi Greg
This test was published in the mag tauchen (Europes largest mag) in May 2001
The test (according to the mag ) took almost a year and each reg was tested new, after 15 and again after 50 dives. I will list only the total breathing efforts (In Joule)of each reg when new and sfter 15 & 50 dives
You may encounter regs that are sold only in Europe.

Apeks TX100 1.22 1.21 1.40
Beuchat VX10/Iceberg 1.52 1.48 1.79
Draeger Shark 2.00 1.84 2.11
Mares MK22/Abyss 1.13 1.20 1.27
Oceanic DX/Delta 1.04 1.24 1.59
Ocean reef Enterprise 1.04 1.24 1.79
Scubapro MK16/R380 1.46 1.55 1.28 !!!!!!!!!!
Atomic Aquatics Z1 0.90 1.12 1.22
Sepadiver K996/Eisberg 1.46 1.42 3.29

Seac Sub Sorius and Seaway R3/Nexus fell out of the test during the first 15 dives or shortly after due to problems.

Mares was the most solid performer with least change in breathing effort (4.5%) and characteristics, eventhough not the easiest to breath from the beginning.
The breathing effort of the Atomic Aquatics increased by 35.56% and there were changes in the breathing characteristics. It was still the easiest to breath.
The looser of the test (that finished, other fell out before!!!)was the Sepadiver that was declared not suitable for diving anymore.
I quote the tester Roland Schmidt: "Nobody should be allowed into the water with this reg"
All manufacturers of the regulators that failed aknowledged the results and promised to improve their products
Oren
P.S: As they when announcing the lottery: All results without guarantee. I translated to my best abilities from a mag.

 

[Greg Barlow]

Hi Greg
This test was published in the mag tauchen (Europes largest mag) in May 2001
The test (according to the mag ) took almost a year and each reg was tested new, after 15 and again after 50 dives. I will list only the total breathing efforts (In Joule)of each reg when new and sfter 15 & 50 dives
You may encounter regs that are sold only in Europe.

Apeks TX100 1.22 1.21 1.40
Beuchat VX10/Iceberg 1.52 1.48 1.79
Draeger Shark 2.00 1.84 2.11
Mares MK22/Abyss 1.13 1.20 1.27
Oceanic DX/Delta 1.04 1.24 1.59
Ocean reef Enterprise 1.04 1.24 1.79
Scubapro MK16/R380 1.46 1.55 1.28 !!!!!!!!!!
Atomic Aquatics Z1 0.90 1.12 1.22
Sepadiver K996/Eisberg 1.46 1.42 3.29

Seac Sub Sorius and Seaway R3/Nexus fell out of the test during the first 15 dives or shortly after due to problems.

Mares was the most solid performer with least change in breathing effort (4.5%) and characteristics, eventhough not the easiest to breath from the beginning.
The breathing effort of the Atomic Aquatics increased by 35.56% and there were changes in the breathing characteristics. It was still the easiest to breath.
The looser of the test (that finished, other fell out before!!!)was the Sepadiver that was declared not suitable for diving anymore.
I quote the tester Roland Schmidt: "Nobody should be allowed into the water with this reg"
All manufacturers of the regulators that failed aknowledged the results and promised to improve their products
Oren
P.S: As they when announcing the lottery: All results without guarantee. I translated to my best abilities from a mag.

Oren,

That is fascinating information. One factor that probably had a strong bearing on the slight changes in the Abyss is that it has such a small number of parts in the second stage. The fact that it is unbalanced means that the only part that should have significant wear is that of the poppet seat. It appears that the balanced designs that were tested showed the greatest increase in inhalation effort.

Research has shown that the breathing effort must have a difference of at least 0.4 joules before a human can discern the variance.

Interesting data indeed...Thanks!

Greg

 

[aquaoren]

Oren,

That is fascinating information. One factor that probably had a strong bearing on the slight changes in the Abyss is that it has such a small number of parts in the second stage. The fact that it is unbalanced means that the only part that should have significant wear is that of the poppet seat. It appears that the balanced designs that were tested showed the greatest increase in inhalation effort.

Research has shown that the breathing effort must have a difference of at least 0.4 joules before a human can discern the variance.

Interesting data indeed...Thanks!

Greg

Thank you for the info Greg,
I didn't know that the Abyss second stage is uncompensated since it is breathing very easy. I always thouhgt all high end regs have a compensated first stage and a balanced second stage.
This is the best proof that you can make an easy breathing reg without too many parts and knobs for adjustment.
It's interesting to know that most people will not feel the difference in breathing effort anyway.
I was always rather the opinion that if something is not broken, don't fix it !!! But this test shows that there is really a significant decline in performance of the regs.
Would you say that this test confirms the diving industry recommendation to service the gear yearly?
I have to note that none of the big names failed the test or even became unsafe to dive though.
Oren