Seeking Opinions on Troubling Incident

[offthewall1]

....so now we have some new facts. You were in front of your students, leading them around the quarry, and one was apparently so far behind he was out of visual range.

Instead of you watching your students and having them in your sight AT ALL TIMES, you are playing follow the leader, with your students having the burden of keeping up with and following YOU?!? How can you possibly say you had any control over your students at all, if they are behind you and you can't see them??


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The post of our Instructor does not say he (the Instructor) lost site of the student... it says the student lost site of him. There is a big difference.

As a qualified and experienced Instructor I am able to both lead my students and keep an eye on them - simply by swimming on my side and looking back... of even by swimming backwards...

While I agree I prefer students lead and I follow... there are times when visibility dictates the Instructor should lead and use the alternative swimming methods posted above

 

[letterboy]

Are you all from California?!?!?! File an assault charge?!?!

Maybe the instructor had a case of mistaken identity? maybe he perceived the other diver as a threat, maybe the "shove" wasn't a "shove" to move the diver off the platform but a push back towards the other side of the platform so he wasn't in the middle of the class.

of course maybe I am just thinking not all people are total ass sucking douchetards like some of you obviously think they are.

If when the instructor came up and you had spoken with them and they were a total ass sucking douchetard well then maybe a call to the instructors shop would have been in order, but call the cops, COME ON, do you not think the cops have ANYTHING better then to respond to a report of someone shoving someone else? Thats like walking down the street, someone purposefully bumps you while walking, you could have fallen into the street and gotten hit by a bus, do you call the cops and file charges or do you ask the person whats up? maybe it was mistaken identity.



YOU DON'T KNOW, I DON'T KNOW. NO ONE BUT THE "SHOVER" KNOWS WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH HIS MIND!


FYI I wasn't the "shover"

 

[JCAT]

This is an interesting situation. You say that the offending instructor works for the Quarries Dive Shop/Owner? Before proceeding, are there other locations you can teach at?

If yes, then 100% id the pusher and out of site of anyone, deal with him. You can attempt to settle in a civilized way by talking, but when that does not provide results......

If no, then talk to the owner about the pushing Instructors behavior. Get clarification on platform use.

my 2psi

 

[SparticleBrane]

SparticleBrane
You don't happen to be the "other" ,bully instructor do you?

Nice -- I stand up for the unpopular guy, and I'm accused of being the guy in question. Perhaps I should have expected that from someone in London, home of Big Brother.

...or is it that it's soooo long since you got certified that you've forgotten how you felt during your 4th dive ever. We all bow to your superior skills

4 years since I got certified...such a long time. Yes, I remember exactly how I felt on my fourth dive ever.

Oh, and since when has photo or video evidence been a prerequisite in reporting to police. Do eye witness accounts not count anymore?

What are the police going to do with a report of one person shoving another...underwater...where there might have been one or two other witnesses who probably saw different things from different angles?

I'd hope they have better things to do than come out to a scuba diving quarry due to a report of an underwater shoving.

 

[Blackwood]

Meh, what are the "assaulted" student's feelings?

Does he/she feel that at any time said shoving put him at risk of harm? If so, he/she has every right to seek legal recourse. As the "assaulted" student's instructor/shop, I'd be hesitant to do anything other than maybe talk to the "assaulting" instructor and say "hey, what's the deal?"

Without having been there, none of us are really qualified to pass judgment, but I don't suspect that the shove was malicious. As some have suggested above, he was probably just getting some distance between the shovee and his student (responsibility). Perhaps he signaled and didn't get any response (extremely likely).

 

[redacted]

What are the police going to do with a report of one person shoving another...underwater...where there might have been one or two other witnesses who probably saw different things from different angles?

I'd hope they have better things to do than come out to a scuba diving quarry due to a report of an underwater shoving.

If this matter had or does end up going to the police, I'd hope they will help make the offending instructor understand that it was not acceptable behavior. He apparently did not know it when the incident occurred. Hopefully, he can learn that lesson without unnecessary escalation.

 

[BDSC]

...assault? Are you kidding me? That wasn't assault. Assault is someone coming after you with a knife or maybe beating your brains in. This was someone shoving...but I'd hardly call it assault. No wonder our nation is becoming more wussified every day. You people want to bring the police and lawyers in to this? Are you nuts? ...and people complain about us turning into such a litigious society...

While I do think the guy/instructor acted in an unprofessional manner, I have to agree totally with the above statement. I can't even imagine calling the cops about something like this. Now if the guy had turned off his air I could see it. But a push underwater? Let's get real. Even if this did fit the legal definition of the word "assult", I can't imagine anyone calling the cops.

On thing I thought about when reading this was what could have caused the other instructor to do this. Don't know for sure but just maybe he thought the other diver was just clowning around and didn't know he was someones student. If his practice is to not let folks just rest or stop (especially when there is instruction going on) on the platform unless they are doing skills, then maybe he thought other instructors had those same rules and therefore it wasn't a student. When I was certified in my local quarry, the platforms were only used for doing the skills and such.

Whatever he was thinking he still shouldn't have shoved the guy though.

 

[lmorin]

I'm not sure that filing an assault charge is the proper course of action, particularly when there is not a certain identification of the individual involved. Boycotting the quarry might be. However, SparticleBrane's belittling of the assault is short sighted, at the very least. A "shove," as he puts it, might be just a shove when on land, but this was in an underwater environment where the outcome of "just a shove" is not so predictable. Besides, the OP used the phrasing, "..shoves him very hard" [my emphasis] which completely removes the action from being "just a shove."

I can also state pretty unequivocally that if this had happened to my wife when she was learning, that would have been the end of diving for her. She'd have really wondered whether there were rules and etiquette of diving that she did not want to live by or that a high percentage of divers were a##holes. And, if my wife hadn't learned, then neither would I.

 

[Blackwood]

If this matter had or does end up going to the police, I'd hope they will help make the offending instructor understand that it was not acceptable behavior.

Ah, but what if it was?

For all we know, the "offending instructor" perceived the presence of the "assaulted student" as a threat to his own student. Perhaps he used visual signals to ask the "assaulted student" to move to no avail.

It's all speculation. Unless the shove caused a dangerous situation (intended or not), I imagine the police would laugh it off.

 

[Blackwood]

Besides, the OP used the phrasing, "..shoves him very hard" [my emphasis] which completely removes the action from being "just a shove."

Ever tried moving an overweighted kneeling student?

I haven't, but I don't imagine it can be done with a light pat on the butt.

It's very easy to misconstrue un-communicated actions underwater, especially when dealing with unfamiliar divers.


I'm not saying he was in the right. I'm saying me may not have been in the wrong.