Shadow Divers – Exposed U 869

[Daylonious]

I wanted to give Gary the benefit of the doubt til I saw this part:

"Shadow Divers paints all divers as bickerers and subservient to its heroes."

That's grossly overstating the book. Sure, TWO of the divers in the book were bickerers.. famously so. But painting all divers that way is just pure BS.

Maybe I will buy Gary's book - in case I run out of toilet paper on a camping trip or something...

D.

 

[EliotD]

"Shadow Divers paints all divers as bickerers and subservient to its heroes."

I dont know, we seem to bicker a lot around here.

Serriously, you are right, Gary has sort of gone off the deep end with his critisism.

 

[mstudley]

Does anyone think that perhaps we should hear what they have to say before we decide what is crap?

Yes. I ordered the book a few days ago and am anxious to see what it has to say. I always enjoy Gary's books and admire the fact that he will only use primary sources for his research.

 

[tamorgen]

Wow, usually I don't get caught up in these boards, but it seems obvious that this issue has really polarized the diving community. I really enjoyed Shadow Divers. I'm just getting into technical diving myself, so I've been reading all I can. German history is another interest of mine, so reading Shadow Divers and The Last Dive were two musts that combined my interests.

I had technical issues with the Last Dive, and the one thing I would agree from this whole thread is that both books were written for the general public, and you have to take that with a grain of salt. Both books were written by authors who were not involved in the actual events, and even though they are writing the books based upon interviews, I'm sure there is a lot of room for error, especially when it goes to the editor. God knows the media is known to mess up the facts, even presitgious newspapers like the NY Times.

All that said, it sounds to me from reading Gary's newsletter that his ego was bruised. There is no question he is a great diver, but his place in Shadow Divers was overshadowed. The main focus was on Chatterton and Kohler. Gary could have gone about this a lot more PC if he simply wanted to question the facts, and present new theories on the sinking, but he was pissed. He went after the "heroes" of Shadow Divers, and that sounds more like a grudge than anything else. He's pissed that Chatterton and Kohler are the heroes, that they have their own TV show, and he doesn't.

The other thing I found interesting was Chatterton's post from February. If his account is true, that their was no oil slick, and that is documented in the war records, then Gary is doing exactly what he accused the author of Shadow Divers of doing, embelishing the facts to cast a better light on his theory.

I'm sure my post will get flamed, but I just wanted to add a fresh perspective. I think when you get so involved in an argument, that it is nearly impossible to back away from your position and see the other sides perspective. I think that is what has happened with Gary, and that's truly sad. I don't think that needs to happen on this board.

 

[bladephotog]

History is constantly being re-written. That doesn't mean the authors of previous versions were a part of some big conspiracy. Sometimes they just don't have all the evidence even though they think they do.

Hell, Chatterton and Kohler would agree. Take their Titanic work for example. Their new evidence of the ribbons of steel point to a different theory of the sinking. Yet I don't think they came out and said Bob Ballard led a conspiracy to keep the truth from the public.

Gentile is just pissed they're getting all this attention and he's not. He should promote and sell his book based on the contents and not on bashing others. How the sub sank takes nothing away from the Shadow Divers story about how it was identified by two people from different backgrounds who became friends through a common goal.

And I think Gentile is about as much a "reporter" as I am a wreck diver.

"In this reporter’s opinion, Frey’s exaggerations and embellishments do not come anywhere near to the amount of fictionalizing that occurred in Shadow Divers. The book was a hoax: a blatant attempt to hoodwink the public with self-serving fabrications. Only a sincere public apology can help to atone for its sins."

He's an author and entitled to his opinions no matter how self-serving they are.

 

[KentFrazier]

I don't see why there is all this debate. As quoted in the Moyers "article", even one of the Coast Guard crew thought it was a wreck.

Sixty years after the attack, 92-year-old Charles Judson still recalls the night. “I thought I was attacking a wreck, it never moved the whole time I attacked it”.

It seems that a combination of both theories is the most probable. The U869 was sunk or disabled by her own torpedo and then finished off by the Coast Guard. Everyone involved should be proud.

Kent

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I've read shadow divers, the last dive and, I highly recommend "fatal depth". And I will acknowledge Gary is a great diver. I am not however impressed with his hunger for trophies and treasure as described in "fatal depth". The numerous trips to the Doria and his china collecting. While I have no problem with artifact hunting I do have one with those who seem to be obsessed with it and the recognition it might bring. Fatal Depth tells many stories of Gary's and others bringing up china and flaunting it in front of other divers who may not have found anything or were not as accomplished and merely dove the wreck but did not penetrate it for whatevr reason. What would be wrong with saying hey you made it you were there, here's a little souvenier. I would have no problem sharing a cup or plate with someone when I had a whole closet full at home. Although anyone who can make the dive on that site and do it safely and come back would seem to be pretty accomplished to me. I hope to do it one day. That is the direction I'm taking. Unfortunately there may not be anything left to find if others keep mining it just to hoard the stuff in their own little vaults.

 

[fpsndiver]

1. Shadow Divers is a great book.
2. Kohler and Chatterton are important divers.
3. Gentile is an important diver.

Gentile is also an outstanding self-promoter....not shy of controversy....the fact that this debate has stirred up interest, will be enough for him to sell books. Kind of like how movie stars always getting divorced and whatever to re-kindle interest in their careers. Controversy always gets attention. Cheers to Gentile for his mastery of capitalism. Boo to Gentile for slinging poo at Kurson (a great author), Kohler, and Chatterton. There is not much detecting or brain surgery by the Deep Sea Detectives, but they certainly have brought some recognition to what sport divers have been doing for the last 50 years....including Gentile. I have a great deal of respect for all these characters, and Gentile's book won't change any of that, but I am a little leary of his motives here.

Tom

 

[purcellj]

The macho jersey dive has finally come ashore. With the rapid decline of the Doria and the lack of new wrecks to pillage, the jersey diver was left to come ashore and measure his meat against others in a new way.

Gentile has done some great things besides loating. Publishing loran numbers comes to mind. For without those numbers, most of the mid-atlantic divers would be locked into certain boats.

Kohler and Chatterton have done some great things as well. But they also happen to be pretty big into the self promotion.

Before characterizing "Exposed", one should read it. I haven't yet. But I plan too.

 

[J75]

I don't think anyone will disagree with the statement that Gary Gentile has been a great contirubtor to the diving community. I also don't think anyone has a problem with him putting forth a new theory, or even evidence, of how the U-869 met its demise.

The problem that I have, and I think that many of the posters here will agree, is the way Gary is presenting his arguement. I've selected a few statements in particular:

"Their participation was deleted in order to glamorize two chosen heroes."

I'm not sure I understand how exactlly the theories put forth in Shadow Divers regarding the demise of the U-869 glamorizes Chatterton and Kohler, or anyone else for that matter. It's their exploration and efforts to identify the sub that makes them heores. To me, finding the sub, and identifying it is a hell of an accomplishment that most people will experience, so to me, that makes them worthy of praise. I can't see how the "truth" about the sinking would make any difference in the way I view them, nor does it take away from their accomplishments.

"The exposé shows the teamwork and camaraderie that are essential facets of the technical diving community."

Oh yeah, I'm getting a real sense of that camaraderie right now.

"Shadow Divers is rife with boastful exaggerations, theatrical embellishments, and unnecessary historical inaccuracies, many of which are addressed in this exposé so that the actual facts will be available to present and future generations."

This may be true. Shadow Divers was written to reach a large audience, including non-divers. As a result, it's not going to be written like a techinical manual that only divers can understand. When I read the book, I knew that I wasn't reading a history textbook. I expect them to put their best effort into historical accuracy, but I know that it's probably not perfect. I expect it to have some drama in it. I'm sure I'm not reading a verbatim account of exactlly what was said. Of course there's going to be some drama.

This is a lot different from what I expect when read Gary's "Shipwrecks of New Jersey" series. I expect to find facts about loacl wrecks. Not a dramatic unfolding of the ship's last hours. It's written for a different audience.

"Frey’s exaggerations and embellishments do not come anywhere near to the amount of fictionalizing that occurred in Shadow Divers."

This is a joke, right? Frey's entire book was false. He know claims that it was a novel, and never intended for it to be published as a true story. Now if Gentile wanted to put forth an argument that the sub really didn't exist or was planted there to be discovered, then maybe "Shadow Divers" would be on par with "A Million Little Pieces".

So is Gary attempting to set the record straight on the U-869, or is he just out to discredit Chatterton and Kohler?