Should certification testing be separate from training?

[ScubyDoo]

I keep seeing the same old bias against commercialization of scuba diving in post after post after post. IMO it appears like those bias against commercialization are always ragging on things like "poor training" and "paying for certs", etc., when really I think they just don't like it that the world of diving has opened up to the masses.

At one time Scuba was a pretty exclusive club. Members of that exclusive club now feel threatened because thier status of "scuba diver" isnt as impressive as it used to be. Its similar to Mr. Doe buying a Rolls Royce when everyone else is driving a Ford Pinto. Then one day everyone else buys a Rolls Royce too, and Mr. Doe doesnt like it.

Are there poorly trained divers.....sure there are. Are there poor instructors.....sure there are. Do dive shops focus to much on profit and not enough on proper training......arguable. SO WHAT!!

I dont understand why so many using this forum are so pre-occupied with this. As a newly certified diver I find it very insulting to hear everyone telling me that I was poorly trained and making me feel like I dont belong in such an "elite" group.
Im sure thats not the intention, but it is certainly the feeling I get from reading your posts.

Just my opinion.

 

[Wannadive]

Being new to the field of scuba, don't really know what to say here, but will I'd like to offer some training experience:

When learning how to fly airplanes in college, the instructors were separate from the actual exam administered. The whole testing was very structured.

Once you've completed the minimum course requirements and received a sign-off from your instructor, you could take the written exams at any authorized testing center, as governed by the FAA. Just a CBT exam, but required. Then, for the practical exam, you had to find and pay a certified examiner (as layed out by the FAA) to conduct you inflight exam.

The examiner is not in any way related to the school or other portions of your training.

I don't know enough about the diving world or it's courses, but the flying environment was highly structured and there wasn't room for deviation.

Yes, your instructor may be more strict or lax then the other guy, or the other schools, but that's what the independant examiner was there to test - based on a list of required tasks, explaining exactly what was and was not acceptable. I saw people pass, and I saw others fail. Failures would require more training, another sign off stating training items were completed, then you could pay to take the test again.

It seems from the above posts that there isn't an 'agency' overseeing diving...is this correct? No FAA for the diving world?

Well, I'm looking forward to starting diving training soon, hope I get good training too, but I'll be wary of what I 'dive' into, by doing as much research as possible, ahead of time.

Sorry for the long post, haven't been here in a while

Andy

 

[WetDane]

Scubydoo,

That is very unfortunate - I understand what you are saying - and I assure you that there is no desire to put you down.

I think what get a lot of people - especially those who have been around the block to react is that training standards today - are alolowing the agencies to send divers out who are not really ready.

Now I assume that you got the best training available - but how do you know? If I had know what I know now about the facility that I got trained from - I would NEVER have gone there - they are lucky that they have not killed anyone.

When you gain more experience as a diver and more skills - you will probably find yourself looking at a new diver and thinking "there goes the viz".
I try very hard not to and I make sure that I do at least a couple of dives with nerw divers every week - the purpose being to offer experience and just go diving so they can gain knowledge and comfort in the water.


Devilfish -
I think you are right on the money - whe I got certified we scheduled another dive - 2 months later...
There is a severe disconnect between diving and having fun in a lot of shops - when I got certified - the owner refused to dive with students - now that makes me want to come back and buy gear...

I am currently involved in the DM stuff and pushing to make the DM's go dive - not once a weekend - but to the point where a diver can pick a time of day and say I want to dive and find someone to dive with - someone relatively experienced and soemone interested in what they are doing.
Mind you that we have a large technical community as well - but even those guys needs omeone to kick them in the rear so they go out and practise skills...

Big T

 

[devilfish]

Scubydoo, it has nothing to do with elite. Don?t be insulted. It has to do with safety. Yes, those that take up the sport have changed nowadays but the ocean did not. The same risks exist. It?s a terrible approach to send divers in the water knowing that they are at an uninformed risk in pursuit of a hobby activity which should be enjoyable and make them believe that they are properly prepared. For most the issue is not so big on this forum. The fact that those that hang out this forum shows that they are interested and active in pursuit of continued education. The problem is with the other millions that are not here and have no clue.

 

[JamesK]

Originally posted by Wannadive
It seems from the above posts that there isn't an 'agency' overseeing diving...is this correct? No FAA for the diving world?

Nope, and we don't need one! I work enough with the FAA everyday. If we had something like that in diving, I might give it up!

 

[jimholcomb]

Originally posted by ScubyDoo
I keep seeing the same old bias against commercialization of scuba diving in post after post after post. IMO it appears like those bias against commercialization are always ragging on things like "poor training" and "paying for certs", etc., when really I think they just don't like it that the world of diving has opened up to the masses.

At one time Scuba was a pretty exclusive club. Members of that exclusive club now feel threatened because thier status of "scuba diver" isnt as impressive as it used to be. Its similar to Mr. Doe buying a Rolls Royce when everyone else is driving a Ford Pinto. Then one day everyone else buys a Rolls Royce too, and Mr. Doe doesnt like it.

Are there poorly trained divers.....sure there are. Are there poor instructors.....sure there are. Do dive shops focus to much on profit and not enough on proper training......arguable. SO WHAT!!

I dont understand why so many using this forum are so pre-occupied with this. As a newly certified diver I find it very insulting to hear everyone telling me that I was poorly trained and making me feel like I dont belong in such an "elite" group.
Im sure thats not the intention, but it is certainly the feeling I get from reading your posts.

Just my opinion.

"the masses" are what gives us a little influence as a community. I don't know where you would think we want less people diving. We want less incompetent bozo's diving and teaching others to dive.

Scuba's elite club and Rolls Royce..... It is members of the scuba elite you refer to that are a part of the problem. Who do you think runs these marketing campaigns and, by inference, the agencies.

Your third paragraph..... What do you mean "SO WHAT!!"

Your forth paragraph.... You may be the best trained diver in the world. I don't recall anyone questioning your or any one person's quality of training.

New thread coming!

 

[JamesK]

Originally posted by jimholcomb
New thread coming!

Uh-Oh!

 

[Diversauras]

I think the problem with seperation of training and certification is in assignable risk.

A shop has instructors and should a calamity happen they are both sued, and the shop can always say the instructor is the fault.

If the instructor and the cert are seperated there will never be anyone to blame in court, and in America at least this will be the show stopper.

Greg
NAUI #6788

 

[devilfish]

Amen dkigreg,
I think every instructor should sit through a diving lawsuit. That would put some sense in them, maybe a little fear.
6788, hmm, around '81?

 

[Diversauras]

Went through Halls in '82

Greg
NAUI 6788