Sidemount course really necessary?

[MyronGanes]

cave 2 is full cave, technically past it since it requires decompression.... unless you are talking about cavern/intro.

Either way, you have passed the justification for Tec40 because you have already made the transition to technical diving so you should be looking for Tec45. Or another instructor. Where in Canada are you?

I live just north of Toronto. My LDS doesn't have many options for instructors and the second closes shop does all their tec courses in mexico which is out of the question for me.

 

[victorzamora]

I've only done cave 1 and 2. I'm not fully cave certified. I don't live in Florida so I didn't have the time to finish it entirely. I'm now home in Canada wanting to take the Tec courses for deco as you've said.

cave 2 is full cave, technically past it since it requires decompression.... unless you are talking about cavern/intro.

Either way, you have passed the justification for Tec40 because you have already made the transition to technical diving so you should be looking for Tec45. Or another instructor. Where in Canada are you?

I could be wrong, but I believe that Myron was referring to "Cavern" and "Intro" to Cave as "Cave 1" and "Cave 2," respectively. Be careful about that as they're dramatically different things. Cave1+Cave2 is thirds, stages, jumps, surveying and 10+ days. Cavern/Intro is sixths, no jumps, no stages, no exploring, and like 4 days.

As for the class, I believe you can take it in recreational backmount gear that's been "slightly modified" (pm me if you'd like for me to actually check the standards) with things like an H valve and primary-donate hose routing. However, many instructors use Tec40 as an "Intro to the gear and mentality you'll be using in Tech diving," so they may not be as willing to accommodate single tank diving. I think Tec40 is useful for rec-only divers, but you should really be skipping it (or taking AN/DP instead) if you're already Intro certified.

 

[tbone1004]

http://techdivertraining.org/

call Steve, he will sort you out. He is north of Toronto in Lake Rosseau, travels wherever, is a good instructor for technical and cave, literally wrote the book on many of the major subjects in technical diving, and won't have a frankly BS requirement for you to take a sidemount course if you don't need it, take tech40 which you don't need if you completed cavern/intro, and sort you out to get decompression.

edit: tagging him so he sees it. @Doppler

 

[MyronGanes]

I could be wrong, but I believe that Myron was referring to "Cavern" and "Intro" to Cave as "Cave 1" and "Cave 2," respectively. Be careful about that as they're dramatically different things. Cave1+Cave2 is thirds, stages, jumps, surveying and 10+ days. Cavern/Intro is sixths, no jumps, no stages, no exploring, and like 4 days.

As for the class, I believe you can take it in recreational backmount gear that's been "slightly modified" (pm me if you'd like for me to actually check the standards) with things like an H valve and primary-donate hose routing. However, many instructors use Tec40 as an "Intro to the gear and mentality you'll be using in Tech diving," so they may not be as willing to accommodate single tank diving. I think Tec40 is useful for rec-only divers, but you should really be skipping it (or taking AN/DP instead) if you're already Intro certified.

Cavern and intro is correct. Although I posted another thread about the cave certs expiring. My instructor has not written me the intro cert until I complete one more qualifying drill. We squeezed 4 days into 3 days. So of course now I can't officially skip Tec 40. I don't mind taking it, I just don't want to spend $400 on the basic sidemount course.

 

[toby43]

The PADI tec sidemount course follows on from the recreational, so there is stuff in the latter you wont have done. Its not just trim and buoyancy. Get the foundations right now and it will cost you a couple of days training. He or she doesnt want to have to teach you rec sidemount on a tec 40 course. They may be doing you a favour. Sadly I have seen technical diving instructors go back to square one because they tried to short cut the basics in their own training.

 

[DevonDiver]

Every agency has prerequisites for training courses. In many cases, an explanation of equivalent acceptable certifications is given.

For Tec45, the requirement is:

1. Certified as a Tec 40 diver or provide a qualifying certification from
another training organization. For the purposes of this level, a qualifying
technical certification is one that qualifies the student to make limited
decompression dives to 40 metres/130 feet using air and EANx using open
circuit scuba equipment.​

I can't recall seeing a prerequisite specified for completing TecRec 40/45/50 training in sidemount. The sidemount course itself states that,once completed, all further PADI and TecRec courses can be completed in sidemount, where the instructor is also qualified in sidemount.

However, in general, PADI don't accept 'self-taught' in lieu of required prerequisite certifications...not at any level. Few agencies do...

I think it's quite reasonable that an instructor should seek proof of training in a given configuration before accepting a student onto a technical level course. If you're self taught, how can you prove that you effectively learned all the necessary skills and drills to an appropriate standard?

There's no scuba police for fun diving... but on a training course you're under the supervision of that instructor. He takes liability for you... and also takes some personal risk accompanying you on decompression dives. In that respect, he has a duty of care to both you and himself. He also has legal liability should something go wrong.

The best option is to ask the instructor about your option to integrate Tec Sidemount training into the Tec40/45/50 courses. PADI allow Tec Sidemount and Tec40/45/50 to be integrated, as the equipment aspect of the syllabus is near identical in both courses. This cuts down the unnecessary stuff... and expense...and also gives you some skills that don't feature on recreational level sidemount training.

For details on integrating sidemount and tec courses, read HERE.

I've run many integrated courses and they're very successful. The courses compliment each-other well and integrating them simply cuts out replication of the same skills (i.e. air-sharing, shut-downs etc). The Tec Sidemount syllabus adds a few extra skills like feather breathing and reg swapping. Nice stuff to know. If you didn't have basic sidemount qualification, you'd do 2x two cylinder dives... then progress to 3 (the Tec40/45 dives). Then you'd do a 4 cylinder dive (beyond Tec40 scope). Most of my students take this option even if they hold basic sidemount certification.

In a nutshell, the integrated course adds a second confined session and two further dives. It runs as:

Confined #1 - Tec45 confined plus Tec Sidemount confined pt1
Dive #1 Tec45 #1 plus Tec Sidemount #1
Dive #2 Tec45 #2 plus Tec Sidemount #2
Dive #3 Tec45 #3 plus Tec Sidemount #3
Dive #4 Tec 45 (deco dive)
Confined #2 - Tec Sidemount Confined pt2 (can be done at the start...)
Dive #5 Tec Sidemount Dive #4 (3 tank sim deco)
Dive #6 Tec Sidemount Dive #5 (4 tank sim deco)

 

[MyronGanes]

The PADI tec sidemount course follows on from the recreational, so there is stuff in the latter you wont have done. Its not just trim and buoyancy. Get the foundations right now and it will cost you a couple of days training. He or she doesnt want to have to teach you rec sidemount on a tec 40 course. They may be doing you a favour. Sadly I have seen technical diving instructors go back to square one because they tried to short cut the basics in their own training.

Instructor doesn't want the tec sidemount course. He just wants the intro sidemount course. Doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[bl6394]

cave 2 is full cave, technically past it since it requires decompression.... unless you are talking about cavern/intro.

Either way, you have passed the justification for Tec40 because you have already made the transition to technical diving so you should be looking for Tec45. Or another instructor. Where in Canada are you?

Tbone - I'm not arguing that you are wrong about the skills learned in a cave certification class meeting or exceeding what one learns in a Tec40 (Intro to Tec) course. I think from a common sense point of view - that makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately - standards are not always based upon...

Strictly looking at PADI standards - PADI has documented which courses qualify for credit when "crossing over from another organization." It's in a document called, "PADI TecRec Qualifying Diver Level Certifications from other Organisations." The only cave courses mentioned that qualify the student to enroll in the next level of training (Tec45) are IANTD's Advanced EANx Cave Diver and Technical Cave Instructor. I'm not saying this is a rational standard - it simply is the document that PADI published in 2013 as a guide...

Debates about agency standards aside - I think this instructor's "requirement" is a bit much. If the student can demonstrate mastery of the Tec40 skills in a sidemount rig, and there is no standards requirement for the student to have a sidemount (rec or tec) cert, he should be able to take the Tec 40 class in whatever gear he chooses that meets the standards of the course.

As a tec diver who completed his coursework in doubles - and then converted to sidemount afterwards - I also think a good instructor can save the OP a lot of time sharing gear configuration tips and tricks that will take a long time to learn on one's own.

 

[tbone1004]

either way, I think getting in touch with @Doppler is a good idea since he will be able to evaluate appropriately and may help him streamline some of his training. I.e. if he is bound to PADI only because that is what is available locally instead of wanting to use PADI for a specific reason.

 

[DevonDiver]

Instructor doesn't want the tec sidemount course. He just wants the intro sidemount course. Doesn't really make sense to me.

Because the basic Sidemount Diver course "enables all subsequent PADI courses to be taken in sidemount configuration". It's simple proof of adequate training.... a universal prerequisite.

I'd guess the instructor was quoting the basic Sidemount Diver course as a quick/cheap option.

Tec Sidemount isn't a prerequisite, as the TecRec courses teach you that stuff anyway. Tec Sidemount is good as a cross-over for existing backmount technical divers. Otherwise, as mentioned, it can be integrated into other TecRec OC courses.

Integrating Tec Sidemount into the Tec45 would be the most efficient way of satisfying any need to have formal sidemount qualification.

Strictly looking at PADI standards - PADI has documented which courses qualify for credit when "crossing over from another organization." It's in a document called, "PADI TecRec Qualifying Diver Level Certifications from other Organisations." The only cave courses mentioned that qualify the student to enroll in the next level of training (Tec45) are IANTD's Advanced EANx Cave Diver and Technical Cave Instructor. I'm not saying this is a rational standard - it simply is the document that PADI published in 2013 as a guide...

The exact prerequisites are defined in the Tech Deep Instructor manual. I quoted these above. These are THE standard. The guide is not a standard, it is information to the public.

Debates about agency standards aside - I think this instructor's "requirement" is a bit much. If the student can demonstrate mastery of the Tec40 skills in a sidemount rig, and there is no standards requirement for the student to have a sidemount (rec or tec) cert, he should be able to take the Tec 40 class in whatever gear he chooses that meets the standards of the course.

If I was that instructor, I'd contact a PADI TecRec training consultant for the 'official line'. That solves the liability issues.That'd be followed by an assessment dive, to ensure the student was competent in basic sidemount before progressing onto Tec40. As a standard, all TecRec courses should start with an assessment of readiness for training. Few do though...

In regards to an instructor's requirements being "a bit much", that really depends on their standards. Since when did stringent requirements become a bad thing in technical diving? Or because it's PADI... it must be a money-grab?? I can't speak for the instructor concerned... but I recently had a sidemount instructor attend for Tec50 training with me. He's returning later this year for Tec Sidemount... in recognition that there's a lot he can still learn.