Something's not right...

[dweeb]

Yes, I am one of those individuals. I have no panic response. None whatsoever. I've actually been tested for this.

Actually, I was referring to the party I was responding to.

Familiarity with a situation reduces the risk of panic. Thus, the first dives in a new situation are always inherently more dangerous than subsquent dives.

You are foolish to embark on any dive in a new situation without being buddied with someone you trust.

"Someone you trust" does not mean "someone you're dependent upon." I never said to solo dive a new situation. I said you don't make a dive you aren't prepared for just because an instructor is there. You base your diving on YOUR preparation, not someone else's.

Your own reasoning regarding panic discounts the idea that a supervising pro will be any less prone to panic than you are, especially given the contagious nature of panic.

Again, in deciding whether to make a dive, assess your OWN preparation; don't depend on your buddy's, instructor's, or guide's preparation.

 

[dweeb]

Second, then this doesn't apply to you, so why answer. The fact is that a majority of divers are on DM lead dives, and many of these end up being trust dives. Even when sometimes the diver may think otherwise.

And that doesn't make it right. The fact that it doesn't apply to me means that it's not necessary, either.

Needlessly argumentative and not on topic. The simple and undisputable fact is that familiarity reduces such risk. Something you know.

Define ADEQUATE familiarity for self reliance, then.
Dial it back from the 500th, to the 50th, to the 10th, to the 5th OW dive. During those first four OW dives, when does it cease to be a trust me dive?

I'm sorry, but when I learned to dive, when the time came for the first OW dive, you could have pointed my buddy and me to the water, and said go, here's a list of skills I want you to perform, and there are underwater video cameras for evaluation purposes. By the time we did our OW dives, we were ready. I experienced absolutely no increment in confidence from getting certified.

Hence, instead of addressing the point, that your first open water dives are inherently more dangerous, and have a greater risk of inducing panic, you apply a straw man argument that there is always risk. Doesn't apply.

As I've pointed out, it absolutely applies. Risk isn't a step function at certification. There's a continuum. Also, in 18 years of classes, I've seen one student approach the point of panic in OW. I've seen dozens experience a panic response in the pool.

A divers first dives are trust dives because the divers response to new surroundings has not been measured yet.

Most divers' first OW dives are not nearly as large an increment in new stimuli as their first confined water dive.
The probability of a panic inducing event is most likely higher later on, when they get complacent about things.

It's difficult to even understand what DWEEB is trying to state here. Did he mean this to be a question? Otherwise, it simply agrees with my statement, which would invalidate nearly everything else Dweeb has posted in his response.

Actually, it's very simple to understand. All you need is the awareness that a one weekend course is not the only option. I said you can't gauge panic response in one weekend. Clearly, implication is that one weekend courses are worthless.

Above you just say that you can't predict actions on a weekend of training,

And now I say GOOD training makes it possible.
I see where you're confused - you think one weekend of training represents good training. It doesn't.

Dweeb, you are an bizarre. Go ahead and do something that is dangerous that you haven't done before and do so without backup.

I never advocated that.

The sad fact you would have the gall to tell me it is a folly to have such backup speaks to some inner personal disfunction.

1. I never told you that. You need to work on reading for comprehension.
2. That you feel the need to assail my sanity in a PERSONAL ATTACK (which would violate the TOS here if anyone but me was the target) says something about your own confidence in your position.

These people would have been better off if they were with someone skilled enough to prevent such injuries.

The fact that the person wasn't such backup, proves that you should have someone you trust you life with when you first embark on such activities.

They were under the direct supervision of an instructor.
What more would you ask? That the person you trust first turns some quarry water into wine?

That's true folly, because you are saying that if something went drastically wrong, your instructor would observe and evaluate it.

No, but I'm not about to make a dive I'm not prepared for based on an assumption he's going to make it OK.

Oh, and that part about sinking to my doom - pretty unlikely in 30 ft. of water.

Unless your buddy were trained in rescue, that was a foolish dive, though in fact, it wasn't true at all.

Actually, my buddy, and everyone in the class, had to demonstrate proficiency in rescue skills adequate to that particular dive. My brother completed the same course at the age of 14, and on his OW training dives, experienced an equipment failure, which he and his buddy handled without any intervention from the instructor.

Your instructor would have helped if something went drastically wrong.

As would any conscientious diver. That doesn't mean I was counting on it. As far as I was concerned, the only one responsible for my safety was me.

Just answer this question, would you have gone on your first open water dive without your instructor?

Asked and answered, several times. The only thing to add is that I would not have made the dive without knowing he had the means to evaluate my performance, since to do so would have meant wasting the $4 for the airfill. I'm rather frugal.

 

[H2Andy]

dweeb, save some for Volume XXIII, dude

 

[Buddha]

Man, you people will fight over just about anything eh?

Trust me dives? I don't advocate doing "trust me dives" in most any situation but if someone wants to do a "trust me dive", they are free to do so as far as i'm concerned. As long as they take responsibility for the consequences of their actions whats the big deal?

Tell me i can't do a dive i want to do because its a "trust me dive" and i'll just laugh in your face and go diving. To each their own i guess.

 

[dweeb]

dweeb, save some for Volume XXIII, dude

Andy, do you have anything relevant to offer, or just personal barbs?

 

[dweeb]

Man, you people will fight over just about anything eh?

Trust me dives? I don't advocate doing "trust me dives" in most any situation but if someone wants to do a "trust me dive", they are free to do so as far as i'm concerned. As long as they take responsibility for the consequences of their actions whats the big deal?

Tell me i can't do a dive i want to do because its a "trust me dive" and i'll just laugh in your face and go diving. To each their own i guess.

Clearly, you're missing something here. No one here is advocating holding a gun to someone's head one way the other. We are discussing whether "trust me" dives are a prudent thing to do, and by saing you don't advocate them, you've just weighed in and taken a side, whether you realize it or wanted to. All we can do here is offer opinions, as you've done, and then support them, which you haben't done. Before you start condemning the whole discussion, let me point out that you've stated an opinion, thus taking a position, but utterly failed to offer anything in support of it. Thus, you've lowered the very signal to noise ratio you seem to be complaining about.

 

[H2Andy]

Andy, do you have anything relevant to offer, or just personal barbs?

:33:

ah.... is "just personal barbs" the answer you're looking for?

(i aim to please, you know :07: )

 

[Keysdrifter454]

Man, you people will fight over just about anything eh?

Beats going to work...

If someone wants to do a "trust me dive", they are free to do so as far as i'm concerned. As long as they take responsibility for the consequences of their actions whats the big deal?

Because they "take responsibility" by having their frothing, foaming, lifeless carcasses dragged over the transom, and I miss my second dive (unless I find you, then I'd bring you up on the second dive), and that's a big deal.

Unless the victim brings something really good in his lunch, I miss out completely (carrot cake, everybody remember that).

Tell me i can't do a dive i want to do because its a "trust me dive" and i'll just laugh in your face and go diving. To each their own i guess.

Fair advice for those in the 1000 dive category, but very, very dangerous advice to impart to a rookie diver fresh out of OW that already shows some experience, responsibility and judgement issues.

Who is reading what you post.

 

[opiniongirl]

Beats going to work...



Because they "take responsibility" by having their frothing, foaming, lifeless carcasses dragged over the transom, and I miss my second dive (unless I find you, then I'd bring you up on the second dive), and that's a big deal.

Unless the victim brings something really good in his lunch, I miss out completely (carrot cake, everybody remember that).



Fair advice for those in the 1000 dive category, but very, very dangerous advice to impart to a rookie diver fresh out of OW that already shows some experience, responsibility and judgement issues.

Who is reading what you post.

Amen.

"A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing"

You get a little less cocky when you've actually seen some tragedy, but I think most of us go through a cocky phase...and get told to smarten up by someone whose been around the block a few times..

 

[dweeb]

ah.... is "just personal barbs" the answer you're looking for?

Definitely not. I don't know why you make such an effort to disappoint my expectations of you. If I was into mushy-headed new age thinking, I'd suggest that you work on your self-esteem.