Something's not right...

[jbd]

The point is though that the reason people panic is because they become convinced that they've lost control...that they are out of options. Mastery of skills brings ability and confidance. While I've seen divers panic underwater, I have never seen a skilled confident and in control diver panic. NEVER. So, again, while there are no absolutes we can reduce the chances of panic to being very very small.

This needs to be read and fully understood by all who scuba dive or teach scuba diving.

 

[Keysdrifter454]

Originally Posted by MikeFerrara
The point is though that the reason people panic is because they become convinced that they've lost control...that they are out of options. Mastery of skills brings ability and confidance. While I've seen divers panic underwater, I have never seen a skilled confident and in control diver panic. NEVER. So, again, while there are no absolutes we can reduce the chances of panic to being very very small.

This needs to be read and fully understood by all who scuba dive or teach scuba diving.

While I totally agree with this, it should be clearly stated that however well trained and experienced, it's still impossible to predict why, when and where one will panic.

 

[jbd]

While I totally agree with this, it should be clearly stated that however well trained and experienced, it's still impossible to predict why, when and where one will panic.

This is true but the well trained, well practiced experienced person is less likely to panic than the poorly trained, unpracticed, inexperienced person in any given situation.

 

[dweeb]

And when did you learn to dive, because it has always been a standard according to a fellow instructor that has been teaching for over 25 years.

The standards were silent on it until the mid 1980's.
The passage you cited was added between my OW and my AOW course.

By the way, citing current standards is useless in this regard. They have changed far more than the addition of this prohibition since I started receiving those quarterly bulletins.

 

[dweeb]

At some level, you are placing your trust in a DM if you are on a DM lead dive. Is the DM taking you someplace beyond your ability, is the DM going to get lost.

Maybe YOU are, but I'm not, and I haven't had any sort of guide on a non-training dive in 18 years.

Here we must disagree. Even if a student has aparently mastered a skill in confined water does not mean under the very different circumstances of an open water dive, that the student will not freak out and make a major mistake.

Nor is there any guarantee they won't freak out and make a major mistake on their 500th shallow reef dive.

You simply can't predict with perfection how a person is going to act under different circumstances. Even if the diver feels confident in his or her own skills, even if the teacher is convinced of the person's skill, does not mean the change of circumstances will require instructor intervention to save the students life.

You can't predict based on one weekend of instruction.

A student may be unaware of a phobia,

Good training probes for such things.

I don't embark on new life threatening actions, regardless of my sense of skill in the action, unless I am with someone I trust to handle the situation. That is a trust me dive in my opinion.

And it is also your folly.

Let's talk about first deep dives.

Let's. We hear every year about an ambulance ride, sometimes terminal, from our local quarry, resulting from a supervised, instructional deep dive during an AOW course.

When I made my OW training dives, the instructor was just there to observe and evaluate, and he made that clear. He contributed no more to my confidence than my buddy did, and were that not mutual, I would have sought another buddy.

 

[dweeb]

While I totally agree with this, it should be clearly stated that however well trained and experienced, it's still impossible to predict why, when and where one will panic.

I know of some individuals who will NEVER panic.
You can probe someone's panic threshhold, much like they do with horses being trained for mounted police work. You just have to be careful not to let your inner sadist enjoy it too much.

 

[opiniongirl]

Absolutely you are NOT a wuss - rather an intelligent individual.

Not only are these instructors violating major standards by exceeding the depth LIMIT set, the mere fact that they would suggest it indicates what type of divers and instructors they are.

You've got the right thinking - and stick to it. Idiots break standards - competent and responsible instructors won't.

"There are old divers, and bold divers, but no old, bold divers."

 

[Coogeeman]

I think the point here is that we are taught to teach to a certain standard. That standard is there for a reason and the reason is that new divers have no experience to base anything off.

Diving in the Caribbean where a 18m or 60ft dive may not be problematic is totally different to diving in New Jersey, a quarry or the North Sea where conditions can get very ugly very quickly. New divers have no experience and all I was trying to point out in the post was that these rules are there for a reason and I actually agree with them although it seems that a lot of people don’t. new divers shouldn't have to experience ugly dives unit they are confident in their surrounding at shallower depths.

The replies have been fantastic though and I appreciate the debate that it then raised. This is a great forum!

Coogeeman

 

[Xanthro]

While I totally agree with this, it should be clearly stated that however well trained and experienced, it's still impossible to predict why, when and where one will panic.

I know of some individuals who will NEVER panic.
You can probe someone's panic threshhold, much like they do with horses being trained for mounted police work. You just have to be careful not to let your inner sadist enjoy it too much.

Yes, I am one of those individuals. I have no panic response. None whatsoever. I've actually been tested for this.

In fact, my heart rate actually slows in "panic" situations and I am more calm than usual.

That being said, despite the fact that the chances of me panicking in a dive situation are probably as low as could humanely be acheived, even I do not discount the possiblity of panic happening in an unfamiliar situation.

You seem to think that somehow magically all these human responses can be measured and categorized prior to experience and that is completely wrong, and it is dangerous.

When any person, no matter the perceived measure threshold of a panic response, is introduced to new surroundings, there is always the possiblity of panic.

Familiarity with a situation reduces the risk of panic. Thus, the first dives in a new situation are always inherently more dangerous than subsquent dives.

You are foolish to embark on any dive in a new situation without being buddied with someone you trust.

Xanthro

 

[Xanthro]

=Dweeb]

At some level, you are placing your trust in a DM if you are on a DM lead dive. Is the DM taking you someplace beyond your ability, is the DM going to get lost.

Maybe YOU are, but I'm not, and I haven't had any sort of guide on a non-training dive in 18 years.

Two things, first you doesn't mean YOU. It's both singular and plural. If I am personally addressing you I will write DWEEB.

Second, then this doesn't apply to you, so why answer. The fact is that a majority of divers are on DM lead dives, and many of these end up being trust dives. Even when sometimes the diver may think otherwise.

Here we must disagree. Even if a student has aparently mastered a skill in confined water does not mean under the very different circumstances of an open water dive, that the student will not freak out and make a major mistake.

Nor is there any guarantee they won't freak out and make a major mistake on their 500th shallow reef dive.

Needlessly argumentative and not on topic. The simple and undisputable fact is that familiarity reduces such risk. Something you know.

Hence, instead of addressing the point, that your first open water dives are inherently more dangerous, and have a greater risk of inducing panic, you apply a straw man argument that there is always risk. Doesn't apply.

A divers first dives are trust dives because the divers response to new surroundings has not been measured yet.

Skill is not the only factor in a physical response.

You simply can't predict with perfection how a person is going to act under different circumstances. Even if the diver feels confident in his or her own skills, even if the teacher is convinced of the person's skill, does not mean the change of circumstances will require instructor intervention to save the students life.

You can't predict based on one weekend of instruction.

It's difficult to even understand what DWEEB is trying to state here. Did he mean this to be a question? Otherwise, it simply agrees with my statement, which would invalidate nearly everything else Dweeb has posted in his response.

A student may be unaware of a phobia,

Good training probes for such things.

Above you just say that you can't predict actions on a weekend of training, and now Dweeb wants an instructor to to become a psychologist and explore the unknown hidden fears of a student.

I can just imagine the probing question. Do you have Ostraconophobia? Why no I do not.

It's not uncommon for someone to be unware of a phobia. Even when a person may be aware of a phobia, such as Taphephobia, this doesn't mean the person will equate the phobia to an underwater experience, and the latter phobia could definitely be trigger by going deep underwater.

I don't embark on new life threatening actions, regardless of my sense of skill in the action, unless I am with someone I trust to handle the situation. That is a trust me dive in my opinion.

And it is also your folly.

Dweeb, you are an bizarre. Go ahead and do something that is dangerous that you haven't done before and do so without backup. The sad fact you would have the gall to tell me it is a folly to have such backup speaks to some inner personal disfunction.

Let's talk about first deep dives.

Let's. We hear every year about an ambulance ride, sometimes terminal, from our local quarry, resulting from a supervised, instructional deep dive during an AOW course.

Again, you take something out of context, in order to try and argue a point, and then counter your own positions.

These people would have been better off if they were with someone skilled enough to prevent such injuries.

The fact that the person wasn't such backup, proves that you should have someone you trust you life with when you first embark on such activities.

When I made my OW training dives, the instructor was just there to observe and evaluate, and he made that clear. He contributed no more to my confidence than my buddy did, and were that not mutual, I would have sought another buddy.

That's true folly, because you are saying that if something went drastically wrong, your instructor would observe and evaluate it. LOL. Look, there goes Dweeb sinking to his doom, better get my wetnotes out.

Unless your buddy were trained in rescue, that was a foolish dive, though in fact, it wasn't true at all. Your instructor would have helped if something went drastically wrong.

Just answer this question, would you have gone on your first open water dive without your instructor?

If you answer no, then you invalidate everything you've posted on this topic.

Xanthro