Son of Deep Stops *or* Waiting to be merged with the mother thread...

[UWSojourner]

Oh look... here is Kevin, trying to make some lame justification, for fabricating data that does not exist.

VPM-B/E exists since 2004 and has been dived many times.

However, +7 does not exist anywhere......

It exists in the chart below. And look, it's very close to B/E. Hmmmm ...

 

[UWSojourner]

There is no such thing a VPM-B +7.

1. You cannot buy a +7, [therefore it doesn't exist.]

2. you cannot make a +7, [therefore it doesn't exist.]

3. there is no planning program that allows us to view a +7, [therefore it doesn't exist.]

On #1. That's a very strange position. If you can't buy it, it doesn't exist??? I guess your ontology would be "I shop, therefore I am."

On #2. Yes you can. See chart below.

On #3. YOUR planning program (V-Planner) used to be able to do it. I haven't seen the desktop version in a long time so maybe you've removed that feature. But you used to be able to go to Advanced Settings and change the critical radius. If you input something around 1.03 for N2 you could generate a VPM-B+7 profile --- IN YOUR SOFTWARE.

 

[dmaziuk]

To get back to my example: If you only want to know when the sun rises tomorrow, it doesn't matter whether your model thinks that the sun orbits the earth or the earth orbits the sun. You might run into problems if you want to know what happens a hundred years from now, or what happens on Mars, but if your only concern is when the sun rises tomorrow, you're good no matter which model you use.

If I want to know what happens a hundred years from now on Mars, I'll have to figure out how to cryogenically freeze myself -- or, rather, unfreeze and revive a century from now. I can speculate on what I think might happen according to the model du jour, but that is not quite the same thing.

 

[oya]

Here is a little history....

From 2003 onwards, the gold standard was VPM-B and it was used widely. Most in GF land tried to copy it and did dives just like it. In DIR land, they pretty much did the same thing. We have a very successful decade of dives on this approach, and records show this. More than half the world followed this approach in some format. VPM-B has been to great depths and used as is in many different dives successfully.

Then the DIR crowd got a little too confident, and started doing some things that were not right.


And Then ..... one day, and man named Simon came along and told us it was all broken, but its OK because he knows how to fix it...... that is where we are now. Except he hasn't fixed anything - nothing was broken .... He just made a big mess instead


.

So the scientific understanding advanced. Didn't find the conclusive answer... just advanced a little.
But some software manufacturers preferred not to.
Got it.

 

[rossh]

So the scientific understanding advanced. Didn't find the conclusive answer... just advanced a little.
But some software manufacturers preferred not to.
Got it.

Science has not advanced, because it was all known back in 2008, including the Nedu test.. All this "deep stop on gassing" that someone is making artificial fuss about, is FULLY addressed and handled perfectly in ALL existing models.


Further more, every existing dive computer uses the same formula for on gassing as desktop planning tools and models. Thats millions of dives that have been done successfully on all brands of dive and deco computers, that rely on these same formula.

The injury was low, the consistency was good..... Nothing was broken... nothing to fix.


The science discussion was had in 2008, where the peer position was quite clear - conflicting / balanced views. No need to do anything. Nothing new has been added since, except one person who wanted to adopt a different and non-peer position, all on his own initiative.

.
Commercial footnote: We make a program called MultiDeco. It has most of the current deco models and variations available for you to choose from. Your welcome to choose any model, and to do as much, or as little deco time as you want - its your choice.

 

[rossh]

On #1. That's a very strange position. If you can't buy it, it doesn't exist??? I guess your ontology would be "I shop, therefore I am."
On #2. Yes you can. See chart below.
On #3. YOUR planning program (V-Planner) used to be able to do it. I haven't seen the desktop version in a long time so maybe you've removed that feature. But you used to be able to go to Advanced Settings and change the critical radius. If you input something around 1.03 for N2 you could generate a VPM-B+7 profile --- IN YOUR SOFTWARE.

And yet.... you still cannot make VPM-B/E do a Nedu test profile.. How remarkable.


+7 does not exist. You cannot buy it, or make a plan with it anywhere. Only Kevin has it, because Kevin "made it up" the +7. Kevin fabricated this made up +7 data point, because he had no other way to make a connection or comparison to the nedu profile. And if you take away this artificially simulated +7 VPM profiles, there is nothing left to connect VPM to the nedu test.


Because if we took away this non-existent data point, the whole nedu argument against VPM-B falls apart.

.

 

[UWSojourner]

Only Kevin has it, because Kevin "made it up" the +7.

No, Kevin did not make it up. I first saw the comparison of VPM to the NEDU profile on RBW when Cys posted it. I just assigned the critical radius a number like you assigned 0-5 to certain critical radius assumptions. See below.

And if you take away this artificially simulated +7 VPM profiles, there is nothing left to connect VPM to the nedu test.

Bingo. And that's why you keep saying it's made up. Simply because it's inconvenient to your narrative about VPM-B.

 

[cerich]

And yet.... you still cannot make VPM-B/E do a Nedu test profile.. How remarkable.


+7 does not exist. You cannot buy it, or make a plan with it anywhere. Only Kevin has it, because Kevin "made it up" the +7. Kevin fabricated this made up +7 data point, because he had no other way to make a connection or comparison to the nedu profile. And if you take away this artificially simulated +7 VPM profiles, there is nothing left to connect VPM to the nedu test.


Because if we took away this non-existent data point, the whole nedu argument against VPM-B falls apart.

.

what do you think regarding BW's comments pre release that the NEDU was like RGBM then...crickets after?

 

[rossh]

No, Kevin did not make it up. I first saw the comparison of VPM to the NEDU profile on RBW when Cys posted it. I just assigned the critical radius a number like you assigned 0-5 to certain critical radius assumptions. See below.

Bingo. And that's why you keep saying it's made up. Simply because it's inconvenient to your narrative about VPM-B.

Kevin: Look what I made up Ma....

I just made it up myself, because it does not exist anywhere, and now I'm going pretend its real.... I hope no one notices, because making up false things can get me in trouble, and then using things I just made up in a pseudo science graph is going to make even more trouble.....

.

 

[oya]

The science discussion was had in 2008, where the peer position was quite clear - conflicting / balanced views. No need to do anything.

I have to admit that I sometimes feel as dumb as a box of wet hammers when I follow this conversation. Other times I think I might be losing my mind a little.

This is one of those times... both of them.
Because when I read your supporting document it seems to say the exact opposite of what you are trying to make as a point.