Spools as safety reels?

[maddiver]

10"L x 6"W drysuit pocket; bellowed, with velcro: on left hip

10"L x 7"W flat pocket: on right

see wkpp.org for appropriate contents in each pocket

pockets available at www.extreme-exposure.com (note the zippered ones are non-dir but ee still sells them)

150 ft on Safety.

You answered your own question...high probability of jamming reel. There are two types of cave divers that have used reels...those that have jammed them and those that lie about it. Why do you think the 38 special is recommended over the glock 9mm for basic home self defense.....when it hits the fan the tool will work...

Be happy to break down each of the rig's elements for you during next dive outing. And if you are willing I will show you in practice how and why things happen both on land and in the water (bring both a spool and a reel with you.....and you have to unravel the birds nest).

 

[Cave Diver]

Originally posted by maddiver
Be happy to break down each of the rig's elements for you during next dive outing. And if you are willing I will show you in practice how and why things happen both on land and in the water (bring both a spool and a reel with you.....and you have to unravel the birds nest).

It's a deal!

 

[maddiver]

Cave Diver (john)

Using the spool you will find it beneficial to clip off the double ender to your shoulder dring while manipulating the spool (paying it out or spooling it up). It keeps you from fumbling and dropping it and feeling like a big dope (some people dislike spools because they haven't employed this method and have been embarrassed once or twice by losing their double ender)

Of course losing a double ender is always possible and that is why an extra is carried in the left bellows pocket I mentioned earlier. Review fifth d video and catch the part of the clip placement during reel use.

 

[willanz]

Mad,

Where do you carry your spools used for jumps and gaps?



My left pocket contents:
Back up mask(on double ender)
Dick around light(on snap)
Spool 150'
Spool 100'
Spool 50'
Line arrows and pins on snap.

Everything goes in the pocket that order and comes out the same way.

I have 2 bungee loops in my pocket.

The outside one carries things I use often. 2 jump spools and line arrows/pins.

The inside(closest to leg) carries mask, light, and Safety reel.


My buddy does the same and we limit our dives to no more than 4 jumps. If we plan on doing more then We clipp off one each to our butt ring.

Accidentally make one more jump???
Nah, I can count to 4 in my sleep.

I would think that if you get off the line and require 150' line to get back then you may have been overlooking some bigger factors...don't you?

I've pulled my safety reel 1 time. That was to do a line repair. We had already done 4 jumps and found a frayed line.

1 out of 400 cave dives in the past 3 years.

I think it's alot easier to keep track of the guideline and your buddy then doing a lost line drill.

 

[maddiver]

But I’ll Take a shot at it anyway.


Let me first start be saying that it is nice to have someone with verifiable experience that is posting on this list. 400 cave dives is quite an accomplishment. Even more so since receiving GUE Cave 2 certification in Nov 2001 (that is NACD Full Cave Equivalent, right?). It’s hard to tell sometimes who is giving experienced opinions or just repeating the ‘party’ line. So I have respect for those that ‘have been there and done that’ so to speak.

Myself I am recipient of the Wakulla Silver Award and received the Wakulla Bronze in 1998 (both verifiable) and received NACD full cave from JJ before GUE was started (also verifiable). So my opinions (as yours) are formed from experience in water and not some internet mumbo jumbo. Sorry for the aside but it just burns me up when you have guys that have never been in a cave giving certified cave divers advice.

Anyhow, back on topic:

1) I carry my spools on my rear D-ring.

I carry my dive spools (and by dive spools I mean those that will or are intended to be employed on the dive in some way….ie gap/jump/etc) on the rear D-ring as a part of the systems approach. This system contains many of the same elements as yours (most likely 98% as we are both GUE/DIR trained). Mine differs from yours in that I view the left safety pocket as that, the ***safety**pocket where emergency or safety items are carried and the muscle memory and training associated with this pocket is for those circumstances. My contents vary only so slightly from yours (I can’t get that many spools in mine with a back up mask anyway- you must have DUI bellows or equivalent?)

With my system when I need to do a jump- I grab a spool from the rear D-ring. When they are gone, I am done. No need to ‘count’ or keep track. No need to go into the pocket and fumble around getting the ‘right’ reel and making sure I don’t grab my safety inadvertently. I have personally witnessed a diver dispense with his safety reel using the system you use (not saying that you would do this-merely that I have witnessed it). Its very hard for a buddy to catch this in your system and correct it (call the dive). In mine, any time someone goes in the safety pocket the dive buddy is put on alert either directly (via signal) or indirectly via observation. Decreased chance for any tomfoolery to occur.

2) I’m glad you can count to 4 in your sleep. I believe most cave divers regardless of agency affiliation can do the same. Why add the task loading (ever so slight)? Dirty Harry “Do you feel lucky Punk”…”I know what your asking yourself- did he fire 5 or did he fire 6”. I’m not going to play that game. I’m a GUE Tech 3 grad myself, so rest assured they made sure we could count all the way to 10!

3) Your Experience is highly rooted in Florida caves and centers around Gainesville (is this correct?) The conditions (of the lines) here would warrant a possible response of ‘needing 150 ft safety’, but I believe that was a statement ignorant of all the other places in the world to dive and the different and challenging conditions which exist. Take Mexico for example- This year alone I’ve done 58 cave dives there and I can tell you the lines are much different.

For example, there are areas where you have to travel 300 ft from ow to the mainline. Following your logic that I must be some kinda haphazard diver if I use a spool with 150’ line…..what would happen to your 2 man buddy team with the 50 or 75 ft safeties vs my team’s 150’ safeties if the Primary reel was stolen or broke and drifted out? We could make it to the light zone…would you bet your life on yours? There are situations along the same line with long jumps (draw your own conclusions from the previous example)

4) Your quote”I would think that if you get off the line and require 150' line to get back then you may have been overlooking some bigger factors...don't you?”

Quite possibly, but I dive like I was trained and I was trained for all contingencies and instead of sitting around brooding about the 'overlooking' I am going to remedy the situation. Just as Parker Turner did trying to dig him and his buddy free in Indian…he took action and didn’t sit around wasting gas asking how he got into this impossible situation.

The other factor you seem to be missing is that a safety reel is as much for your buddy as for you. What if you need to find your buddy who got lost off the line in a silt out? A longer spool allows you to pay out more line in hopes of finding him or him finding you (more likely he runs into your safety line). I sure wouldn’t want to think I was 25’ short. The only way to really comprehend this is to lay it out on a surface course. Try it sometime.

5) “I've pulled my safety reel 1 time. That was to do a line repair. We had already done 4 jumps and found a frayed line.”

That’s interesting, as I just read a post where you indicated you never used your safety except for practice. Did I miss something? Nonetheless, I would never use ‘my’ safety or allow a team member to violate the integrity of their safety for a frayed line ahead of us (would consider it for a broken line between us and the surface)… A safety is called that for a reason in my opinion and isn’t there to go cutting line off whenever you feel like it. You end up on a future dive a day late and a dollar short (or 10’ short in this case). I would choose to come back properly prepared or communicate it to another team in route to this area. Some people carry a ‘house keeping spool’ with line dedicated to this purpose.

6) your quote “I think it's alot easier to keep track of the guideline and your buddy then doing a lost line drill.”

Agree totally- but I train and expect for the worst so when it happens I am ready. See previous comments to this effect.

 

[Divesherpa]

I'm not as experienced as Will or MAD in a cave, I only have 260 cave dives (wait, add two today), since full cave (which is how NACD and NSS-CDS count cave dives). Turned in papers for Abe Davis due to the necessity for Diepolder, Alachua, and Cathedral. I'm mainly an Alaskan wreck diver.
We use spools primarily for gaps, although not always. We don't limit to 4 gaps. Why do you guys?

If you need 150' of line to find main line, you are out there. This is an outrageous distance.

Mad, it's nice to see that you learned to count to 10. How many of the 58 were guided?

I do agree with MAD on using the safety to do line repairs. This may not be the smartest thing to do. It's definately not DIR.

Why are the extra arrows and pins in the pocket? How many arrows and pins do you need?

 

[maddiver]

I hope that is the case.

If you are dead set on using reels (other than primary and for exploration purposes) they need to be employed on your jumps and gaps rather than as a safety. I mean why on earth would you use spools (assuming you believe in their properties not to jam...etc that has been highlighted and buried to death above and in other threads) and then go and use a reel for your single most important line tool? the one that absolutely has to work all the time at any stress level under any and all circumstances. If you are going to get in a wreck do you drive a Gremlin or a Volvo?

If you use them for jumps (reels) and they bird nest on you no biggie...call the dive. If you use it looking for a lost buddy and it bird nests you just screwed up big time. There are those cave divers that have birds nested reels and those that have lied about it......just like the wetsuit deal. I've bird nested my share for sure.

Originally posted by Rick Murchison

I use spools as jump and gap reels. I use a safety reel as a safety reel.
Rick

 

[maddiver]

So I'll answer the ones directed at me and leave the others for willianz.

I don't limit to 4 gaps/jumps that's his limit.

150 ft is your opinion....try a land drill and apply to the situation in Mexico...reread. perfectly logical, how else would you deal with the primary line 'dissappearance' in my previous post. The 150 would just be enough there, right?

Hey, I'm working on counting to 15 now as I did my undergrad and grad work at UF.

I 'never' do guided dives in Mexico....do you think I am rich or something? I ask those in the know and navigate my own way or sneak in behind unsuspecting classes and guided tours. I like it better diving with my team without a guide. Also like the freedom of having a car and the ability to go anywhere due to lack of guide political boundaries.

Whoops misread your 150ft statement I think? There are cut back lines that 'require' a straightline distance of 300+ ft and this is 'outrageous' but is my belief is done to promote the 'guide system'. It works for most people....but if its there I'll find it.

Dude...we look forward to your comments. My rant was on the masses of individuals that have no clue that spout off. I very much am interested in your coldwater caves and techniques. I am always learning and certainly need to keep practicing. Diepolder is awesome, let me know when you are going and who is your guide (I don't count against the number anymore since I've done more than the 5 or 6 they require- so the guide could still take me plus the 2 limit). I'll go with you.

Too bad eagles is shut....that place almost cost me a degree or two.....talk about addiction.

Originally posted by Divesherpa
I'm not as experienced as Will or MAD in a cave, I only have 260 cave dives (wait, add two today), since full cave (which is how NACD and NSS-CDS count cave dives). Turned in papers for Abe Davis due to the necessity for Diepolder, Alachua, and Cathedral. I'm mainly an Alaskan wreck diver.
We use spools primarily for gaps, although not always. We don't limit to 4 gaps. Why do you guys?

If you need 150' of line to find main line, you are out there. This is an outrageous distance.

Mad, it's nice to see that you learned to count to 10. How many of the 58 were guided?

I do agree with MAD on using the safety to do line repairs. This may not be the smartest thing to do. It's definately not DIR.

 

[Divesherpa]

I really would like to see Eagle's Nest as I have never been there. A guy I occasionally have to deal with tells me about it every time I see him, he sneaks it. The guy is a real D&%K.
What is your favorite part of Diepolder?

I don't know if you would dive with me, Mad, because I don't do everything the way I was taught or the DIR way. I dive whatever is safe for the given conditions.
Sorry about the mixup with the 4 jump deal.

I moved to G'ville to cave dive and attend UF. I'm here for another 10 months, so I should have silver by then. I was gunning for X-mas, but had to get a job to pay for O2, He, and topoffs. Life's a real bummer sometimes.

Cheers

 

[maddiver]

I like the back near the apex of the circuit and sometimes hang with the guide at ~210 on the ceiling and watch the other two squander around in the silt at 285+ really lights up that big room when everyone has HID's and its much better since I've been diving heavy mix (I actually remember).

Looking up when the surface pool is clear is awesome (although those that know, know that when the surface is crystal the cave is crap and when the surface sucks the cave is crystal)

Eagles was my favorite. Your buddy has some big cajones. It used to be all you need was a medium set and a buddy with a 30-30 topside. Do you ever run into Ken Sallot or derrick haggler in Gville?

I would go with you, just add tyler moon as my buddy and you and the guide or you and the guide and your pal if the styles didn't work together. Tyler's always up for a dive to Diepolder. I'll most likely be around the 2-6 if I don't go south to dive the wrecks. There's always lower orange grove for a intermediate Trimix dive. Have you done Alachua Sink yet?

Originally posted by Divesherpa
I really would like to see Eagle's Nest as I have never been there. A guy I occasionally have to deal with tells me about it every time I see him, he sneaks it. The guy is a real D&%K.
What is your favorite part of Diepolder?

I don't know if you would dive with me, Mad, because I don't do everything the way I was taught or the DIR way. I dive whatever is safe for the given conditions.
Sorry about the mixup with the 4 jump deal.

I moved to G'ville to cave dive and attend UF. I'm here for another 10 months, so I should have silver by then. I was gunning for X-mas, but had to get a job to pay for O2, He, and topoffs. Life's a real bummer sometimes.

Cheers