Standards deficiencies

[Big-t-2538]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Nobody seconds my kick suggestion so I'll try another.

I agree there should be more than 1 kick taught or demonstrated, but for students to master more than one I think is a bit extreme. We spend time teaching two (flutter and dolphin), they are the two easiest kicks for students to pick up on. I believe frog kick would be a little too much to ask from the BOW student, but should definetly be something for AOW.

Speaking strictly from teaching swim lessons....it takes a good 3 weeks (2 1/2 hour lessons each week) for kids to learn breast stroke and be proficent at it. The kick taught there is commonly referred to as frog kick, but is a little different than the SCUBA version.

 

[Jarhead]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Nobody seconds my kick suggestion so I'll try another.

Gas management.... PADI standards require a student to look at the gauge and they recomment the student end the dive with between three and sis hundred psi remaining. IANTD introduces the 1/2 + 200 rule but I don't remember if it's in OW or AOW. I don't think either methos is sufficient especially when resort DM's are taking novices on deep dives.

it was so obviously correct, that I didn't realize it needed a second.

I'll also agree with:
valve manipulation (Whew! that's a big word for Monday morning) not "touched in (my) BOW
gas management covered extensively in AOW, but only touched in BOW

I'm a bit at a disadvantage when discussing the major agencies, as my training has been NASE. From what I've seen/heard, we covered the physiology and physics more than most agencies. We even covered a familiarization of US Navy deco tables.

Note: Unfortunately, NASE introduced a new set of manuals and the extensive physiology, physics and familiarization of US Navy deco tables have been reduced or removed. But they are so pretty. uke:

Jarhead

 

[Diver0001]

raybo once bubbled...
Physics & physiology.

A little more understanding of these would lead to a lot more understanding of all of the other issues debated.

If you can understand ~ on a fundamental level ~ thing like mass density, and why a cork floats and a rock sinks, and a gas is compressable, but a liquid isn't, and a bit of the "why" behind that, it's not going to be much of a stretch to apply the concept to practice.

Now, at least from my experience and observation, it is just a "monkey see, monkey do", with very little emphasis on the "why".

They used to teach this stuff very in depth. Not just a token few minutes on the subject. And test on it!

No, not everybody passed, but not everybody should, either

This is in the system at DM level, which is the right order if you ask me. First learn to dive with the directly relevant theory and then fill in indirectly relevant theory later. You might cover more of the physiology and deco theory at Rescue level but for just learning how to dive you don't need it.

R..

 

[raybo]

But I don't agree.

Diver0001 once bubbled....

This is in the system at DM level, which is the right order if you ask me. First learn to dive with the directly relevant theory and then fill in indirectly relevant theory later. You might cover more of the physiology and deco theory at Rescue level but for just learning how to dive you don't need it.

I was taught the hard theory concurrent with the practical skills, and I was a much more confident and capable of understanding what was going on right from the start. Granted, there were lots of skills to develop, but I understood much more of the cause and effect.

No. It's not easy. But I never thought that it's supposed to be.

I can apreciate the economics that have caused the the industry to adopt the methods they have. Just don't agree.

Acceptance of mediocrity just isn't in my nature.

 

[Conor]

I'm going to speak up as one of the students. During my OW we did pick up a couple of differnt finning techniques, good bouyancy control (by comparison with others since and on the opinions of professionals we have dived with), an appreciation of trim and I am sure we had to alter our own tank valves at one point. And all this on a resort course. How ?

Small group (3 trainees, 1 instructor)
myself and my buddy had backgrounds in sciences and actively debated the science
As momentum picked up the instructor put a bit more in
As for the kicks this was 'monkey see monkey do'
Visualisation (as used in motorcycling)

What I thought was missing ?

A reality check, something to tell us we still have a hell of a lot to learn before we are 'Divers' and what we should know before even considering diving independantly.

I do think the resort style course such as PADI's OW do lead to resort style divers, but there doesn't seem to be a clear stepping stone beyond that.

 

[kjunheart]

I began reading the first thread because of the subject line. Since most of you that have posted to this thread seem to either be instructors or extremely experienced, I thought you might like to hear the opinion of someone who has just taken the classes.

In June 2002, I contacted a LDS and paid extra money to take an "Executive course". They gave me the PADI CD & book and sent me on my way. I consider myself to be a very intelligent person with common sense. I have to be honest that I didn’t retain much from my home schooling despite the fact that I took all of the reviews/tests and never missed an answer. I then met with the instructor for 20 minutes, took the test (of course passed), did some pool work, my open water dives (all in the ocean & depths 40-60 ft) and poof within 3 days I was certified.

That weekend my ex-boyfriend and I went to the Keys and dove with a local dive operator in Marathon. He and I had gotten our OW at the same time but through different dive shops and this was the first dive (out of class) for both of us. His training was so thorough (PADI instructor) the he could put together his equipment blindfolded as opposed to me who (in my one-on-one class had only been asked to do it once) was so nervous on that dive because I realized I wasn’t sure of what I was doing. I was so afraid that I would do it wrong that I finally had him walk me through it. When we did get in the water, I had no clue how to control my buoyancy. He was the one who showed me how to achieve neutral buoyancy which of course made my dive much easier and my air consumption better. Plus, what is also scary, is that I learned more in the dive briefing on 30 minute boat ride out to the dive site than I did from the books & my so called training.

In one of your posts, one of you said that teaching certain things in the OW is just too much information for a student and it should be saved for AOW. I completely disagree. I have found that just about everyone I know that has their OW either waited many months, sometimes years before going on to obtain their AOW if at all. Using those OW divers as an example…you know the ones who get certified then only dive maybe once once every three months. They keep diving assuming they know everything they need to know to keep them safe and to have good dives for some reason they think “certified” mean the same as qualified. If they do not have the luxury to dive often & obtain experience to hone their skills then what do they have to rely on? Their training.

I am lucky that I not only had a dive buddy on my first dive who knew what he was doing and helped me out but also found an extremely competent instructor for my AOW & Nitrox who understood my situation and took the time to make sure I knew what I was doing before allowing me to move on to the advanced training. Books are good to read but nothing replaces doing! For me, it really wasn't what was in the training books as much as the way it was taught. I think it is the instructors job to make sure that the student practices all of the basics over and over again until it is second nature for the student before allowing them to go off on their own. How can any instructor rely on a student to ask the right/important questions or to know whether or not they have “mastered” the basics. That is plain arrogance. That is why people pay instructors. People like me pay extra to have the one-on-one training to learn it correctly, to teach them the hows and the whys of the basics. It is the responsibility of the instructor to drill everything into the student’s head so they don’t kill themselves or endanger the lives of anyone else.

 

[Diver0001]

raybo once bubbled...
But I don't agree.

<snip>

Acceptance of mediocrity just isn't in my nature.

I hope you don't see it as acceptance of mediocrity (hmmm, of course you do, you just said that..... )

You're right to say that it's a matter of expediency and I certainly won't deny that there are economic factors at play in the decsions that go into the the order in which the material is presented ..... BUT ..... it's not the only reason.

Presenting the *directly* relevant things first is completely logical and should take higher priority.

Let's take a concrete example. In Rescue you learned the signs and symptoms of DCI and you learned to treat them all with O2. What's the big picture .....? Identification and treatment, which is exactly what yuo need when you're on the spot. The mechanics behind an AGE or the process that leads to bubble formation, or the details of Haldane's research and the history of deco theory is completely irrelevant when you're dealing with a diver who has DCI. You job as a Rescue diver is accident managment, arranging transportation, first-aid and accident prevention. Knowing how many tissue compartments Haldane used doesn't help you do this any better.

On the other hand I recognise that some background knowledge is nice to have so you can ;make better mental connections and that some people will learn better if they have it. You can place stuff better. If a student has questions and wants more background a good instructor will show you wehre you can find it while keeping you focussed on the "practical" and the "pragmatic".

There are some organisations that present a lot of theory early in the training. CMAS is one, IIRC. CMAS based clubs will make you learn a lot and as a 1* diver you know more theory than a PADI rescue diver. But are you a better diver for having spent many weeks in a pool with a snorkel before being allowed to make your first pool dive with compressed air? What has more value? Being able to distinguish a balanced piston from a balanced diaphragm at 10 paces or being able to recover your second stage if you lose it under water? Another example. Is it more valuable to you to know how your pressure guage was manufactured or how to interpret the information it gives you?

PADI (among others) chooses to offer "practical" "experiential (in water)" training where you start diving right away. This means taht they need to offer you the "practical" and "relevant" knowledge right away and delay some of the indirectly related knowledge until later. Where you can fault PADI (et al), perhaps, is in that they don't offer an OWD++ course where students who want it can do it slower with more drilling skills (especially buoyancy) more dives and more theory. I think there's a market for this and you certainly don't want to go around frustrating students who want this so that they start using words like "mediocrity" and "dumbing down".

As it is, the tempo is high (the course is too short) to offer too much background information. If you do this too early in the process it will only cause many students to forget some of the important and directly relevant things..... IMO. For example, you'll end up with students who know how many tissue compartment Haldane used but they can't find their way around the tables.....

R..

 

[Dan Gibson]

Add Rock Bottom to gas management. It seems to me that this is the most appropriate for OW divers.

Adding additional kicks even if they don't master them is good. I doubt if most would be able to back kick by the end of class, but at least you have given them something to work on.

Rescue techniques beyond the cramp removal and diver tows. Although we have not added this yet, we have been introducing students to bringing the unconscious diver to the surface through demonstrations.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Nobody seconds my kick suggestion so I'll try another.

Gas management.... PADI standards require a student to look at the gauge and they recomment the student end the dive with between three and sis hundred psi remaining. IANTD introduces the 1/2 + 200 rule but I don't remember if it's in OW or AOW. I don't think either methos is sufficient especially when resort DM's are taking novices on deep dives.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Diver0001 once bubbled...


I'll second both of those (kicks and gas management) and add one of my own, buddy skills & dive "think-throughs". Some people learn it from their instructors but I don't think it's formally in the system until DM level. How many OW divers know how to ask the right questions to ask in deciding if tehy want to do a particular dive with a particular buddy or to come to an acceptable plan for everyone. Given how people are paired off on dive boats it makes sense to get this on the agenda early. Likewise, we're taught "follow the leader" during courses, which is the first thing you need to "unlearn" after your OWD class and your buddy needs you "beside" him.

R..

Buddy skills came up in the last thread but was never really discussed. What are some of you instrucors doing training wise. I know what the standards say but from what I see most students just follow the instructor around for four dives and are never asked to display their level of awareness. However it may become critical on their very first post-cert dive.

kjunheart, thanks for the post. BTW according to standards you are required to assemble and disassemble your equipment 5 times prior to the completion of confined water (pool) session 5 .I think you were cheated.

 

[raybo]

To a certain extent.

Diver0001 once bubbled...

As it is, the tempo is high (the course is too short) to offer too much background information

This is at the core of the issue~ not enough time. If you're not committed enough to understand what you're doing, you shouldn't be diving.

I'm not talking about complete understanding of the Haldane (or other) deco model at this level. But the fact of the matter is, at least a cursory understanding of the underlying principles IS relevant to safe diving. When I asked about a lot of this stuff in the PADI O/W I took with my wife, I got the "you get that in the advanced class" answer.

Poppycock! the PADI AOW is little more than an intrdoduction to all the other specialties available to be pruchased.

I just think a little more in depth exposure to the subject material earlier would tend to impress upon people to take diving a little more seriously than most I see do. Even at the "recreational" level.

They've been told that it's dangerous to do certain things, so don't do them, but don't (for the most part) understand why.

We've all heard the horror stories about seeing people do things they shouldn't be doing.

I know my opinion doesn't mean squat, and is not going to change the way O/W is taught. I'm just glad I was taught the way I was.

If ignorance is bliss, there ought to be a lot of happy divers out there. They simply don't know that what they don't know.

Just my .02. Not meant to be a flame. Just a comment of my frustration and disappointment with what I percieve as a significant degradation of the knowledge and skill level of new divers.