Student fatality - Kreidesee, Germany

[lowwall]

I got a message from a German speaker with some more info on this. I'll just quote him.

"The translation is wonky on some details. The autopsy found a collapsed lung but no 'further organic failure'.
The boy friend and the instructor are not being 'charged'. The spokesperson for the public prosecuters office said that they are being investigating for negligent homocide but that it could have very well just been a tragic accident.

The quarry is really cold at that depth even in summer. About low 40s even when the shallow water is in the high 60s."

 

[RedSix]

It looks like this is the same accident:

30-year-old woman drowned during a diving course - Kreidesee, Germany

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/regional/bremen/rb-toedlicher-tauchunfall-in-cuxhaven--30-jaehrige-frau-ertrinkt-102.html Google translation... Cause of fatal diving accident in Kreidesee near Cuxhaven unclear As of: August 7, 2023 4:14 p.m According to police, there were complications with...

scubaboard.com

 

[Twiny]

Very simple. Palm thrust to the stomach forces the exhale. Every instructor should have been taught this. I was taught it in my open water class. Instructor told me this is what he would do on a CESA if the didn't see bubbles being exhaled.

Palm thrust ? Might be a good idea, never heard of that. However nor PADI nor SSI instructors are taught this method when conducting a CESA : the rule is to always have 1 hand in contact with a thick rope to simply be able to stop the (breathholding) student ascent. For rescue skills during exploration time, the rule is to slow down the ascent by grabbing the diver's fins for as long as possible

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Palm thrust ? Might be a good idea, never heard of that. However nor PADI nor SSI instructors are taught this method when conducting a CESA : the rule is to always have 1 hand in contact with a thick rope to simply be able to stop the (breathholding) student ascent. For rescue skills during exploration time, the rule is to slow down the ascent by grabbing the diver's fins for as long as possible

What if there is no line? I was taught the arrest using the line as well. But if you are doing a free ascent or a diver bolts then yes, grab them. AND if they are not exhaling a shove to the stomach is also all that's required to remind them to exhale. If they exhale the airway is open and then they will inhale and start breathing again.
CESA is an incredibly stupid and unnecessary exercise that only encourages poor gas management and lousy buddy skills. It's a holdover from j-valves and no octos.
It's dangerous for the student and instructor. I taught it diagonally in the pool. But not in open water after SEI changed the standards to make it optional in open water.
Then with SDI it was required in open water but flexible on which dive it should occur. I never took more that 2 students at a time as an SDI Instructor and so would do one student on dive 3 and one on dive 4 with the buddy/other student ascending with us at a safe rate.
Even then, I stressed that this was an absolute last resort and buddy skills and gas management should be the first methods used to deal with OOA scenarios.
It should be done away with in open water. And no instructor should have to do multiple students on a single dive.
The risk of barotrauma to both the instructor and student is unacceptable and not worth it.
With what we know of how dangerous this is, it's clear that all agencies that still require it don't care about getting someone hurt. And this attitude was one of the factors that helped me decide to retire from teaching.
I can't believe the insurance companies still allow it.
I know of one lawsuit that has been filed in connection with an injury that supposedly occurred when a CESA was done in training.

 

[Twiny]

I partially agree on all you said.
Just want to remind that depth for a cesa is max 9m and 6m mininum. For PADI, the line is an obligation. For SSI it is at the instructor discretion.
What I like in a CESA is the stress on rule N1 (never hold your breath) with the Aah sound method.

 

[VikingDives]

What if there is no line? I was taught the arrest using the line as well. But if you are doing a free ascent or a diver bolts then yes, grab them. AND if they are not exhaling a shove to the stomach is also all that's required to remind them to exhale. If they exhale the airway is open and then they will inhale and start breathing again.
CESA is an incredibly stupid and unnecessary exercise that only encourages poor gas management and lousy buddy skills. It's a holdover from j-valves and no octos.
It's dangerous for the student and instructor. I taught it diagonally in the pool. But not in open water after SEI changed the standards to make it optional in open water.
Then with SDI it was required in open water but flexible on which dive it should occur. I never took more that 2 students at a time as an SDI Instructor and so would do one student on dive 3 and one on dive 4 with the buddy/other student ascending with us at a safe rate.
Even then, I stressed that this was an absolute last resort and buddy skills and gas management should be the first methods used to deal with OOA scenarios.
It should be done away with in open water. And no instructor should have to do multiple students on a single dive.
The risk of barotrauma to both the instructor and student is unacceptable and not worth it.
With what we know of how dangerous this is, it's clear that all agencies that still require it don't care about getting someone hurt. And this attitude was one of the factors that helped me decide to retire from teaching.
I can't believe the insurance companies still allow it.
I know of one lawsuit that has been filed in connection with an injury that supposedly occurred when a CESA was done in training.

I asked SDI about skills for open water and what they told me was that I did not have to do anything I felt the student mastered in confined water. I've since dropped the CESA from my open water requirements.

I had a student inquire if it was a requirement and HQ told them it was a "leftover" and that they did not have to do it in OW if their instructor didn't require it.

I just got home from doing OW for a couple of PADI referral students. Their instructor asked me to do the full PADI requirements including a CESA for his students. Because we have a great working relationship and I'd like to maintain that, I did my first CESAs in OW in about three years.

I instructed the students that I wanted them to go slow, really slow, while they did them. One did a perfect CESA on the first try and the other took a breath at about 20 feet. She shook her head, stopped and when to the surface on one breath. I passed her and we had a talk about not being the person who runs out of air. I passed her and told both students my expectation: "If you ever run out of gas because you aren't looking at your SPG; send me your certification cards and I'll redo open water with you. You're too well trained to run out of gas. You know what you need to do and I expect you to do it when I'm not watching."

 

[dmaziuk]

Just want to remind that depth for a cesa is max 9m and 6m mininum. [...]
What I like in a CESA is the stress on rule N1 (never hold your breath) with the Aah sound method.

Which of course is exactly the wrong thing to teach because you have to forcefully exhale to make the sound and if by some miracle you can stick to 9m/m ascent rate, there is no way you can keep it on for the full minute it takes to come up from 9 metres. You can only hope your student won't be dumb enough to do that from any real depth.

Like Jim said: an incredibly stupid exercise.

 

[Twiny]

Which of course is exactly the wrong thing to teach because you have to forcefully exhale to make the sound and if by some miracle you can stick to 9m/m ascent rate, there is no way you can keep it on for the full minute it takes to come up from 9 metres. You can only hope your student won't be dumb enough to do that from any real depth.

Like Jim said: an incredibly stupid exercise.

Padi max ascent rate is 18/mn and in case you are deeper than 9m, you are supposed to do a buoyant emergency ascent (drop weights). So a Cesa can't be longer than 30 seconds and obviously in the reality if AAO and alone you might ascent faster which means that a lung injury is really the thing N1 to avoid and the best way is Aah sound. Aah sound is actually also a good way to make sure that a panicked diver does not hold his breath. We disagree man but no hard feelings !
With Padi no practice of buoyant emergency ascent but with SSI it has to be done in confined (only).
For emergency buoyant ascent, are you also against the Aah sound ?

 

[VikingDives]

Padi max ascent rate is 18/mn and in case you are deeper than 9m, you are supposed to do a buoyant emergency ascent (drop weights). So a Cesa can't be longer than 30 seconds and obviously in the reality if AAO and alone you might ascent faster which means that a lung injury is really the thing N1 to avoid and the best way is Aah sound. Aah sound is actually also a good way to make sure that a panicked diver does not hold his breath. We disagree man but no hard feelings !
With Padi no practice of buoyant emergency ascent but with SSI it has to be done in confined (only).
For emergency buoyant ascent, are you also against the Aah sound ?

You might want to crack that open water book open again and look at the difference between buoyant and controlled emergency swimming ascents.

 

[Twiny]

You might want to crack that open water book open again and look at the difference between buoyant and controlled emergency swimming ascents.

Why do you suggest that ? What's wrong with what I just said ? You do not like the term "Aah sound" ? You might prefer "continuous sound on the way up" ?