Teaching prisoners to dive...

[Gary D.]

For those that have never ventured outside of the sport realm of diving open your minds a little.

Very few Sport divers could successfully complete Military or Commercial training let alone the riggers of the job once training is over with.

Granted some commands, jobs or assignments are easy and enjoyable while others are barely tolerable.

That program at Chico was tough and a lot of the inmates that went through it were not quite as tough as they thought they were. But what the program did was give these guys a sense of worth. It taught them that there is another life out there that didn’t involve breaking into places, taking what they wanted when ever they wanted and you can get high on life and not drugs.

Their hire and retention rate was high and the percentage that returned to prison was very low. It took guys destined to a life of crime and made good productive citizens out of them. But before you go off, they are still convicted felons. No right to bare arms, vote, get a large percentage of jobs and still have a restrictive rights life.

They didn’t pay higher taxes to pay back the program. What they did was start paying taxes, which they never did before. The end result is they quit costing the state and local jurisdictions money and started contributing just like the rest of us.

It has been proven over the years that educating incarcerated people is a much better way than just warehousing them for X amount of time.

A person that gets kicked out the door with no job, trade, goal or direction will more than likely re-offend in just a matter of days. A person that gets out with a trade, job and some goals will have a much better chance at becoming productive to society.

These guys didn’t get as big a deal as you might think. Those who dream of getting into a MK-5, SL-17 or any of the other commercial gear out there I hope you get a chance to do it. Those that have I hope you enjoyed it. But going for those fun introductory dives don’t even come close to getting the true picture of what it’s really like.

When you HAVE to suit up in 200-300 pounds of gear and DO a rather tough demanding job where your chance of getting injured is high it is no longer fun.

All diving is in the commercial world is your drive to work. Once you get there you can start your construction or repair work and there are no coffee brakes. It is very tough work that very few can or are willing to do. So if the inmates want to do it let them and let them become productive citizens.

I'm all for it and hope it can return some day.

Gary D.

 

[Scuba Do]

I could point out the relevant sections of law, but that would take too long. Here is the DL handbook issued by the state which confirms what I've been saying in regards to penalties.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/DLhandbook.pdf

As for your comments about fraud and embezzlement, you are completely right. I don't have a problem putting real criminals away. I on the other hand know 2 people, one fairly well, that are going through the crock of a legal system we have here because they made mistakes in regards to not having a license and insurance. One of them is about to go to jail for probably a year and has had problems finding employment because of the class a offenses on her record. While I do agree she's done something wrong, I don't think the punishment fits the crime.

TxHockeyGuy

I do not want to start fight with you as you are probably a great guy. I also do not want to derail this thread. I will keep this short, and then I promise not to interrupt this thread with this again. Citing the code is not time consuming (Texas Code Section ___) and is more instructive than sending me a lengthy booklet. That you cannot cite the code just confirms that this is not an area with which you are familiar, and, therefore, should not be spouting off as if you are. In what you did send me, it says that a sentence of 72 hours to 6 months is to be imposed for driving without a license. It does NOT say that that time cannot be suspended. For a first offender, that time will almost certainly be suspended. No active jail time. As for your friend, by your own statements, you have not told us the whole story. The MOST she could get for this offense is 6 months (and it would be extraordinary, to say the least, for a judge to impose anywhere near the maximum for a first offense) yet you say she is about to go to jail for a year. Obviously, there are many more things going on here. I am done with this topic on this thread for good.

 

[plot]

I could point out the relevant sections of law, but that would take too long. Here is the DL handbook issued by the state which confirms what I've been saying in regards to penalties.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/DLhandbook.pdf

As for your comments about fraud and embezzlement, you are completely right. I don't have a problem putting real criminals away. I on the other hand know 2 people, one fairly well, that are going through the crock of a legal system we have here because they made mistakes in regards to not having a license and insurance. One of them is about to go to jail for probably a year and has had problems finding employment because of the class a offenses on her record. While I do agree she's done something wrong, I don't think the punishment fits the crime.

Sounds like those 2 people had really bad lawyers.


I on the other hand, have no qalm with people driving without a liscense or insurance being thrown in jail... as when they get into a wreck, they just royally sckrewed someone over since their own insurance won't cover it. I know more than a few people who have been hit by uninsured motorists and ended up with all the debt...

I also know more than a few people who rightfully SHOULD be in jail for various offenses involving unregistered handguns, drugs, etc. yet they've "beaten" the system so to speak every time and are still out of the big house. One was part of a work release program for a few months but that was the extent of his jailtime.

 

[TxHockeyGuy]

Sounds like those 2 people had really bad lawyers.

I had planned to put out a lengthy response to respond to both the bad lawyers comments and the request for specific legal code regarding my previous comments. That would only further derail this thread so if you want that info, please PM me and I will provide what I do know.

Back to the original topic. Anyone who is spending 4 years in jail has more than likely committed a fairly serious crime and will more than likely be back if something isn't done to intervene. That being the case it is probably far cheaper to train them in a profesion than to keep putting them back in jail/prison. I wouldn't however be opposed to having wages garnished to pay back their training so long as it wouldn't reduce their income so much they couldn't afford to live. If the success rate is so high there's no reason they couldn't implement something similar to a college loan payback schedule.

 

[DeputyDan]

I think all prison terms should come with job training.

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

I agree that job training is important IF the person has some chance of using it (lifers obviously don't need it as much!)

However, I also think everyone in prison should ALREADY be working at least 40 hours/week at something. even if it is meaningless (breaking rocks comes to mind).

I believe this because:

1) someone lifting weights, reading magazines, playing checkers and making toilet wine all day is not going to fit well into a defined work schedule when they get out no matter what their education or background --- my experience with workers comp patients is that once a person tastes the peach of not working for any length of time, it's hard to go back.

2) some productive work might actually help defray the cost of their incarceration

3) it might actually give them some enjoyment, training and self-esteem

4) in the case of the worst miscreants (the murderer of Polly Klaas comes to mind), some horribly boring, tedious, mind-numbing drudge of a job (again, breaking rocks comes to mind) may make them wish they HAD gotten the death penalty

Most offenses don't require a cruel sentence, just some means of deterrence and some hope that the person will be safer once released

 

[Thalassamania]

A study I saw once, if you believe any psycological studies, indicated that crimininals of the sort being trained at Chino were idealy suited for work as commercial divers (which is not to say that commercial divers are criminals, just that various aspects of the job such as risk taking, physical danger, etc. made criminals good candidates for success in the profession). Seems to me everybody wins: A second chance for someone who's gone wrong, a second chance for society to get a contributing members instead of an expensive ward, etc.

 

[H2Andy]

Sounds like those 2 people had really bad lawyers.

perhaps the greatest inequalities in America today are unequal access to the legal system and unequal access to competent legal counsel.

 

[TimAZ]

Apparently, the inmates accepted into the program are heavily scrutinized and carefully vetted. One misstep and you’re out. The recidivism rate for graduates of the program is one of the lowest rates for any program.

I would expect that through careful vetting and scrutiny one could construct a group with a very low recidivism rate with no program at all. Just pick carefully. While I have no major issue with training inmates to function in legal society, the "train me or else I'll do more damage" approach smells of extortion. If the class is of value (and I think it may well be) why not charge tuition from those who have the means and perhaps establish student loans for those who don't. As far as taxes alone "paying back the cost of the class, these folks are already playing catchup ball to compensate for the damage they did to get incarcerated not to mention the cost of locking them up in the first place.

 

[Mr.X]

I agree that job training is important IF the person has some chance of using it (lifers obviously don't need it as much!)

However, I also think everyone in prison should ALREADY be working at least 40 hours/week at something. even if it is meaningless (breaking rocks comes to mind).

I believe this because:

1) someone lifting weights, reading magazines, playing checkers and making toilet wine all day is not going to fit well into a defined work schedule when they get out no matter what their education or background --- my experience with workers comp patients is that once a person tastes the peach of not working for any length of time, it's hard to go back.

2) some productive work might actually help defray the cost of their incarceration

3) it might actually give them some enjoyment, training and self-esteem

4) in the case of the worst miscreants (the murderer of Polly Klaas comes to mind), some horribly boring, tedious, mind-numbing drudge of a job (again, breaking rocks comes to mind) may make them wish they HAD gotten the death penalty

Most offenses don't require a cruel sentence, just some means of deterrence and some hope that the person will be safer once released

Agreed with the exception of pre-meditated murders (as in the case of Polly Klaas). I am all for a Draconian method of punishment.

Additionally, with the Chino divers a fair amount of vetting beforehand ensures some type graduating consistency. A sobering fact is that not all who enter prison can be rehabilitated, nor wish to be rehabilitated. I see similar circumstances with juvenile delinquents/sociopaths.

Interestingly enough, the unreacheable (by meaningful vocation) have a history of doing it wrong. They will continue to do it wrong as they drawn to it. The murderer of Polly Klaas was some mother &^$^ er. Psychological tests would be in order, + a brain scan.