Tech diving, equipment, awareness and too much too soon

[kensuf]

TDI's standards for Technical DM are here.

The pertinent parts:

3.5 Student Prerequisites
1.Minimum age 18
2.Certified as an SDI Divemaster (equivalent ratings from other agencies are not accepted for this TDI Divemaster prerequisite)
3.Provide copies of current CPR and first aid training
4.Have a current medical examination
5.Provide proof of 50 logged dives
6.Certified as technical diver for which they are applying as a divemaster in.

The only agency specific part I see is certification as a DM, which would make sense. My read is you could be certified as a full trimix diver from any agency/instructor that you choose.

 

[stuartv]

Advanced Trimix Dive Master?!?

?!?!?!???

SMH

If your gonna do advanced dives you really need to know how to plan and execute advanced dives and not look for a babysitter, uh I mean DM, to lead you.

I wanted to let this go, but it has stayed on my mind, so I will address it directly.

A non-profit group that I am part of conducts diving operations. These dives could be anything from a day trip for recreational dives, to a 2 week expedition to perform a detailed site survey of a wreck. Depths could be anywhere from recreational to advanced trimix. The group's bylaws require that any person organizing and leading any dive trip must be certified at the DM level or higher.

If a person is organizing and leading a dive trip to spend a week diving to 240 feet to map a wreck site, perhaps it will make sense to you that that person needs to be certified as a DM at the Adv Trimix level? Would you want to go out on a boat for a week of diving at 240' where the diving operations and logistics were organized by someone who is a DM but does not have the first clue about tech diving?

Would you be willing to serve on the Board of Directors (and take on the commensurate liability) of an organization that conducted dive operations at the adv trimix level and allowed those operations to be organized and lead by someone who does not have a professional certification to lead dive operations at that level?

Are you certified as a DM at any technical level? Are you being dismissive of training and a certification you don't even have?

SMH x 2

 

[stuartv]

TDI's standards for Technical DM are here.

The pertinent parts:



The only agency specific part I see is certification as a DM, which would make sense. My read is you could be certified as a full trimix diver from any agency/instructor that you choose.

And I never said anything different. What I said before is that if I were seeking training and certification as a DM, and my potential instructor could not issue an SDI DM cert, I would look for a different instructor. Why get a PADI DM cert (for example), and then hassle with crossing over to an SDI DM cert when my real purpose is to get a TDI DM cert?

 

[kensuf]

And I never said anything different. What I said before is that if I were seeking training and certification as a DM, and my potential instructor could not issue an SDI DM cert, I would look for a different instructor. Why get a PADI DM cert (for example), and then hassle with crossing over to an SDI DM cert when my real purpose is to get a TDI DM cert?

No, you didn't specify leadership training in your post that started this derailment.

Here's what you posted:

As a consumer of scuba training, I think it is completely appropriate that the agency is a factor in the decision on who to purchase training from. I'm not going to bother listing them but I can think of several examples right off the top of my head where I could have the option for the greatest instructor in the world for certain things, but if they were only able to issue a certification from a specific agency, I would choose to find a different instructor.

 

[stuartv]

No, you didn't specify leadership training in your post that started this derailment.

Here's what you posted:

You're correct that that particular post didn't. My post later that gave examples, did, for one example. And it gave another example that is not about leadership. My point was that when I talked about leadership, I did not say anything about needing a tech cert for actual diving to be from a specific agency. When I posted about getting a TDI DM cert, I said that the agency of the prerequisite Rec DM cert would cause me to factor the agency into the decision. You somehow turned that into an implication that I said the agency of the technical DIVING (vs leadership) cert mattered for something - which I never implied.

Why should a student seeking an instructor pay attention to the agency as well?

Here is one example:

A student wants to get to full cave. They want to spend 2 years at an intermediate level before they progress on. They should make sure the instructor can issue them a cert from an agency that won't expire in the meantime. If the instructor can only issue a cert that will expire before the student's timeline allows them to proceed on to the next level, the student should find a different instructor.

Here is another:

A student wants to eventually be a Dive Master, certified to lead Adv Trimix dives. But, they are currently only an experience OW diver. If their goal is to be a TDI Adv Trimix DM, and they are looking for a recreational DM instructor to get started, they MIGHT legitimately choose to not use an instructor that cannot specifically issue an SDI DM cert - since TDI DM requires SDI DM as a prereq and does not accept crossovers.

I am confident there are more. I can think of more, but I think these two examples are sufficient.

The only agency specific part I see is certification as a DM, which would make sense. My read is you could be certified as a full trimix diver from any agency/instructor that you choose.

And I never said anything that conflicts with that.

 

[Jack Hammer]

If a person is organizing and leading a dive trip to spend a week diving to 240 feet to map a wreck site, perhaps it will make sense to you that that person needs to be certified as a DM at the Adv Trimix level? Would you want to go out on a boat for a week of diving at 240' where the diving operations and logistics were organized by someone who is a DM but does not have the first clue about tech diving?

Stuart, this is exactly my point. Guides are fine. If you are gonna do tech dives you need to undrrdtand and know how to plan and execute those dives and not rely on the DM to do it for you.

What happens when your "Advanced Trimix DM" tells you your plan is x minutes surveying at 240' and he's got 18/45 in doubled AL80s for you with an AL40 of O2 for deco followed by "here's your deco schedule". What happens if you end up going to another site? What happens if you need to abort the five early? What happens if you have a failure?

Tech diving is very different from OW recrestional diving. Do you see any potential issues with allowing others to handle all the logistics and planning?

 

[stuartv]

Stuart, this is exactly my point. Guides are fine. If you are gonna do tech dives you need to undrrdtand and know how to plan and execute those dives and not rely on the DM to do it for you.

What happens when your "Advanced Trimix DM" tells you your plan is x minutes surveying at 240' and he's got 18/45 in doubled AL80s for you with an AL40 of O2 for deco followed by "here's your deco schedule". What happens if you end up going to another site? What happens if you need to abort the five early? What happens if you have a failure?

Tech diving is very different from OW recrestional diving. Do you see any potential issues with allowing others to handle all the logistics and planning?

I'm not talking about telling you what tanks and gases you're going to use.

I'm talking about "obtaining" a boat. Vetting the captain and the boat's facilities and safety equipment. Etc. Sure, when you show up, make sure for yourself that everything is good. But, do you really want to drive a long way to get to a dive boat and then find out that the boat is not suitable for the dives you're doing because the person who made the arrangements didn't understand the tech dive requirements? Do you think 10 divers should individually call the boat's captain and ask all the same questions 10 different times to make sure the boat and captain are suitable for the plan?

I'm talking about being on the boat while the dive is happening and knowing how to handle it if a diver shoots a bag indicating some type of emergency. Or if a diver is lost.

There is more to planning a dive and the logistics of a 2 week expedition than just figuring out what tanks and gases you're going to use. And you definitely don't need a whole boat's worth of divers all trying to do all that work individually. How many people need to do the research and put together the dive safety plan? Is it not acceptable to let one professional do it, distribute it to all the divers, and then each of them validate the plan to their own satisfaction? And, again, etc..

 

[DevonDiver]

What happens when your "Advanced Trimix DM" tells you your plan is x minutes surveying at 240' and he's got 18/45 in doubled AL80s for you with an AL40 of O2 for deco followed by "here's your deco schedule". What happens if you end up going to another site? What happens if you need to abort the five early? What happens if you have a failure?

You're way off the mark as to how guided tech diving works. Way off...

I occasionally guide tech divers.... Normally on wreck penetrations, sometimes deep wrecks.

I brief outline plan for the site. Divers do their detailed tech dive planning. I check that. If satisfactory to me, that's what we do. If I see improvements can be made, I'll brief that. There has to be consensus...

Its actually the same mechanism as how recreational diving SHOULD be DMed. How Divemasters are taught.... give briefing of general plan, let teams do their specific dive plan. The DM isn't responsible. The divers don't abdicate responsibility.

In practice, recreational diving doesn't work that way. It's a Shepherd the herd job. It DOES work that way in tech.

As the guide, I need to SEE the divers are competent for the dive to be attempted.

Its not rare to rare to turn down divers, regardless of their c-cards.

 

[ScubaInChicago]

I personally would love to have a tech guide on a complex tourist dive, aka, Truk. If not, a simple brief of site conditions like depth, temps, current, viz, and items of interest are more than enough for me to wing it. I don't expect anyone to plan my dive, but typical profiles help keep everyone stay on the same schedule when multiple dives are being done in a day.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I'm not talking about telling you what tanks and gases you're going to use.

I'm talking about "obtaining" a boat. Vetting the captain and the boat's facilities and safety equipment. Etc. Sure, when you show up, make sure for yourself that everything is good. But, do you really want to drive a long way to get to a dive boat and then find out that the boat is not suitable for the dives you're doing because the person who made the arrangements didn't understand the tech dive requirements? Do you think 10 divers should individually call the boat's captain and ask all the same questions 10 different times to make sure the boat and captain are suitable for the plan?

I'm talking about being on the boat while the dive is happening and knowing how to handle it if a diver shoots a bag indicating some type of emergency. Or if a diver is lost.

There is more to planning a dive and the logistics of a 2 week expedition than just figuring out what tanks and gases you're going to use. And you definitely don't need a whole boat's worth of divers all trying to do all that work individually. How many people need to do the research and put together the dive safety plan? Is it not acceptable to let one professional do it, distribute it to all the divers, and then each of them validate the plan to their own satisfaction? And, again, etc..

Sounds like you've got a very specific role in mind for this "professional." I recall you saying it's something required by the club or group you belong to. It isn't really what people (or apparently the agencies) think of as a DM role.

If it were me in this role--whatever we want to call it--I'd write myself a big, fat waiver for the 10 divers to sign.