I took SSI's "Deep" specialty in my AOW. We learned basically nothing of significance. O2 partial pressures never came up at all. The only real information in the book was "you might want to consider a secondary air source such as a Spare Air."
Thank heavens for PADI
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I took SSI's "Deep" specialty in my AOW. We learned basically nothing of significance. O2 partial pressures never came up at all. The only real information in the book was "you might want to consider a secondary air source such as a Spare Air."
Whirling Girl and all...continued from last post...
Do you see the implications of this? Where does an agency make it's money? It's from the instructors and shops. Their revenue is pro member fees, facility fees, student materials and certification fees. Divers don't usually shop for a class from a certain agency. They go with whatever the local shop is offering.
Now take into account the presure applied by the manufacturers and the shop need to sell large volumes of equipment. I can teach any agency I want. Which will I choose? As a shop owner I'll choos the one who's standards allow me to sell the most equipment. IOW, certify divers faster and cheaper especially since I can't get anything for the class anyway. PADI is the biggest because they're the best at this.
The current definition of good training is that which sells the most equipment. Why should we care if you can hover or frog kick. That just isn'y worth a wooden nickle to us. It takes skill, time and money to teach it and there is ZERO return. Not to mention the fact that now I need a far more skilled instructor who's going to want more money.
How much do you think it'd cost me to get MHK to teach my OW classes? LOL
Sorry folks the manufacturers are in the drivers seat. The shop owner have to kiss their hind end and the agencies compete for the shops. The agencies respond to what the shops need and they're driven by the manufacturers.
Do you see the implications of this? Where does an agency make it's money? It's from the instructors and shops. Their revenue is pro member fees, facility fees, student materials and certification fees. Divers don't usually shop for a class from a certain agency. They go with whatever the local shop is offering.
Now take into account the presure applied by the manufacturers and the shop need to sell large volumes of equipment. I can teach any agency I want. Which will I choose? As a shop owner I'll choos the one who's standards allow me to sell the most equipment. IOW, certify divers faster and cheaper especially since I can't get anything for the class anyway. PADI is the biggest because they're the best at this.
The current definition of good training is that which sells the most equipment. Why should we care if you can hover or frog kick. That just isn'y worth a wooden nickle to us. It takes skill, time and money to teach it and there is ZERO return. Not to mention the fact that now I need a far more skilled instructor who's going to want more money.
How much do you think it'd cost me to get MHK to teach my OW classes? LOL
Sorry folks the manufacturers are in the drivers seat. The shop owner have to kiss their hind end and the agencies compete for the shops. The agencies respond to what the shops need and they're driven by the manufacturers.
Mike, you need to go see some other part of the world of dive shops or something, because I will never give in that your statement is the norm, I have never seen this at all. I have worked in or through shops for 20 years and never, not once, not ever had a student that came in looking for a card that left with the same attitude. It may be the words they were speaking but what they really wanted was for someone to teach them to dive, not just give them a card.
As an LDS owner or employee it your job to listen to what they are saying then educated them to the point where they can understand that there is a difference between getting a card and learning to dive, then convince then to learn to dive. I have also never allowed a novice to leave with a card without also having the basic dive skills and competencies to dive safely in conditions similar to those encountered during their class. Sometimes schedule is a discriminator but again, usually the shop was able to accommodate it. For those looking for the cheapest price, well that again requires customer education. That education is really the job of every professional in the industry, whether instructor or tank boy. Those willing and able to accomplish this may succeed as a business, without it one cant. This isnt true just for the dive industry either; customer education, spin, propaganda, or whatever you call it is part of everything where a product or service is being offered.
divemed06 once bubbled...
Mike,
I think you missed the point of the quote. The point was that he (the instructor) took responsibility for his courses. In other words, he challenged the guy to find a better dive school (PADI or other) and by doing so, educated his "possible" clients about the other agencies/school available. This is the put-up or shut-up philosophy as it relates the quality of dive training he offered. In other words, he didn't try put any of the other schools down...he basically said "try several other schools/agencies to further your education and I can almost guarantee you that you'll come back to my shop...if you don't come back, I did something wrong in my instrution/approach not to keep you as my student". BTW, this instructor has been in business for 17 years, certified over 2000 divers. Of those 2000 divers, nearly all of them have gone back to him to further their education...guess he's doing something right.
Sorry, I think I did misunderstand. Thanks for the clearification.
gedunk,
I know that wasn't what you were trying to say, but it is a valid point. I'm glad you agree.
You are correct, training cannot 100% eliminate panic. OTOH, it can greatly reduce it. I think it is important to reduce it as much as possible.
I know that wasn't what you were trying to say, but it is a valid point. I'm glad you agree.
You are correct, training cannot 100% eliminate panic. OTOH, it can greatly reduce it. I think it is important to reduce it as much as possible.
I agree and I don't know of any one who has invested more time, money and energy trying to educate customers than I have. The fact is though that often your only oportunity to educate them is a 30 second phone call with a stranger on the other end asking the price of an OW class. They then call the one down the street and go with the cheapest or the fastest. How much more does your shop charhge for an OW class than the local competition? Try it and see.
I have to agree with Dino. To add a bit to the discussion... can you blame PADI for standardizing their course content? In the times we live in, corporations can't afford not to have standardized practices. Case in point, almost all major airlines have recently introduced automated external defibrillators (AED) in every plane. Why? In the 90s there was a case in the US where a passenger had a cardiac arrest in a plane equipped with an AED; he was rescusitated. Following that incident, another passenger in a plane (from the same major airline) that did not have an AED had a cardiac arrest and died. The family succesfully sued the airline for not providing a resonable standard of care which was available in the other plane. The use of an AED in planes is now the standard of care because it is resonable to for airlines to provide each plane with a 2000$ machine + training). Things are no different in the diving industry. If PADI was to allow instructors to basically teach any which way they want. they would open themselves up to messy lawsuits. It's imparative for such a large corporation (and yes PADI is a corporation), to set reasonable standards and ensure that their representatives (ie. Instructors) follow these standards. Even though it "might" be better for divers as a whole to allow instructors to "add in" what they think is important in a dive course, this would not be resonable, from a corporate point of view as well as from a certifying agency point of view.
Blue Space
Contributor
My instructor certs through them so in my opinion they are great.
I really do believe some of you put way to much weight on the agency and the instructors.. They can only do so much, IMHO its the student who is going to take the information and apply it.. If the student just wants a card then no matter how hard you try its not going to make a difference.. A good student must take the skills he/she has learned and practice, practice, practice..
I really do believe some of you put way to much weight on the agency and the instructors.. They can only do so much, IMHO its the student who is going to take the information and apply it.. If the student just wants a card then no matter how hard you try its not going to make a difference.. A good student must take the skills he/she has learned and practice, practice, practice..
Why is it that so many want to use the number of deaths or lack of them to validate our training system. That seems valid only if our definition of good training is that which doesn't result in injury or death. I think we need another definition. My first dives were in Lake Norfork Arkansas solo with a spear gun and ZERO prior instruction. I had a way of breathing so I didn't die or even come close. Should I propose that as a valid certification process. LOL
As I've stated before the fact is that a person can suit up and dive with ZERO training and probably live through it.
Combine that fact with the fact that most dives are canned resort dives. The industry has evolved in such a way that in order to participate in the capacity that most do very little training is required. Nothing wrong with selling it. I just wish they'd stop calling it diving. However when a diver begins to venture outside of the typical supervised (or preplanned dives) it becomes much clearer that they are poorly prepared. Just try taking the average recreational diver into an advanced nitrox class. We usually need to start them over almost from the beginning.
Ever read the list of skills included in a DIRF? with the exception of shooting a bag it's OW class all over folks. It's not new skills or technical skills but rather the same skills performed in a quality fasion.
BTW, Diversauras I have seen a large number of classes in different areas of the country. I've seen divers in a wide veriety of locations and in fact keep a little video library to show students. I see little difference in skill level. Grab any video of any group of recreational divers from any reort in any country and it would work in my class to illustrate divers head up, foot down and negative, divers pushing themselves off the bottom coasting and dropping then pushing off again, bycicle kicks, dangling equipment and you name it. This is all unedited. I didn't select any certain one because it was unusually bad. I can use any video from any resort. It's worse in the quarry only because of the silty bottom. Oh, in each group there may be one or two that are sort of squared away. Again most survive but unless something goes really wrong that requires little if any training.
As I've stated before the fact is that a person can suit up and dive with ZERO training and probably live through it.
Combine that fact with the fact that most dives are canned resort dives. The industry has evolved in such a way that in order to participate in the capacity that most do very little training is required. Nothing wrong with selling it. I just wish they'd stop calling it diving. However when a diver begins to venture outside of the typical supervised (or preplanned dives) it becomes much clearer that they are poorly prepared. Just try taking the average recreational diver into an advanced nitrox class. We usually need to start them over almost from the beginning.
Ever read the list of skills included in a DIRF? with the exception of shooting a bag it's OW class all over folks. It's not new skills or technical skills but rather the same skills performed in a quality fasion.
BTW, Diversauras I have seen a large number of classes in different areas of the country. I've seen divers in a wide veriety of locations and in fact keep a little video library to show students. I see little difference in skill level. Grab any video of any group of recreational divers from any reort in any country and it would work in my class to illustrate divers head up, foot down and negative, divers pushing themselves off the bottom coasting and dropping then pushing off again, bycicle kicks, dangling equipment and you name it. This is all unedited. I didn't select any certain one because it was unusually bad. I can use any video from any resort. It's worse in the quarry only because of the silty bottom. Oh, in each group there may be one or two that are sort of squared away. Again most survive but unless something goes really wrong that requires little if any training.
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divemed06,
That's it exactly. PADI has designed its course to provide a marketable item for dive shops... and that includes considerations of risk management which reduce the shops liabilities and provide for the student what they consider to be the "standard of care" in dive training.
Brandon,
"PADI rules! My instructor certs through them so in my opinion they are great."
You crack me up! PADI rules because it attracts the best students!
SA
That's it exactly. PADI has designed its course to provide a marketable item for dive shops... and that includes considerations of risk management which reduce the shops liabilities and provide for the student what they consider to be the "standard of care" in dive training.
Brandon,
"PADI rules! My instructor certs through them so in my opinion they are great."
You crack me up! PADI rules because it attracts the best students!
SA
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