The BC from H#%*

[Nemrod]

There is the gear that dive shops sell to new divers, the biggest money maker for them now is the 700 dollars bag of air with cumberbunds, multiple straps and a bucket full of D rings but not limited to just that and then there is the gear that long time divers actually use--they are often not the same stuff.

Rather than rushing to buy all this expenisve gear a new diver should OBSERVE and then observe and then try as much as possible to use different equipment--realizing you cannot rent or borrow everything. BUT you can observe and what you should do is observe not what new divers use, not what shop supplied equipment your instructor uses but observe what long time divers use for gear. There will be variation of course and there is always more than one way to accomplish the same end result but observe the end result that long time divers seek--simplicity and function are primary. Anything that works against simplicity and function should be avoided. N

 

[marcienko]

How many people have done this?

When I started SCUBA diving, I tried (I really did!) to go slow on the gear acquisitions and make sure I knew what I wanted before I got it. Now, only a few dives later I realize that what I want is different stuff.

What makes it even more painful is that I bought my gear when I had more money than I do now, so I feel stuck.

Mainly what I'm talking about is:

1. Replace my wetsuit with a drysuit
2. Replace my sucky jacket-style BC with either a back-inflate BC or a BP/W
3. Replace my Air2 with a regular octupus

Now, the drysuit, I kinda saw that one coming, and just didn't want to spend the money at the time. The octo, not such a big deal, kinda like a "you say tomato" thing. But the one that really kills me is the BC. I spent so much time trying different ones, reading the litreature, asking around, etc. and still ended up with a P - O - S !!!!! How can that design work for anybody? And how can I have liked it so much at first, and HATE it so much now?

Anybody else do that?

Welcome to the club (lol)

Regards

Marcin

 

[TxHockeyGuy]

I've done better than most with regards to not having to repurchase a lot of gear, but I have still repurchased some. I did swap out my air2 for a standard octo but otherwise have the same reg and BCD I purchased from the beginning. I was lucky in that I managed to pick out something that I liked from the very beginning. Remember this is about your preference, not the preference of other board members.

It looks like you're leaning towards a BP/W and hog setup. There's nothing wrong with that setup, but why are you looking that way? If you are looking that way simply because so many here think they are great, you're looking that way for the wrong reasons. There are benefits to a BP/W and hog setup, but they are not for everyone. Personally, I can't stand wearing a BP/W as I've tried one and I hated it. Be sure you try one before you buy it.

 

[cummings66]

Reading between the lines the problem isn't so much your gear as it is a lack of practice. For example, you say when you dump air you're high, then you crash down. To me that sounds more like you're too heavy and are managing too big of an air bubble in the BC than it is a fault with the dumping.

You say you flip over if you relax, sounds more like a trim problem than anything else. Can't feel the Velcro on the pockets, sigh, I dive a BP/W and don't have pockets to feel except on my leg. You also mention it moved around on you before you modified it, to me that sounds like it didn't really fit you in the first place and may be too large for you. The squeeze you feel is common with many jacket BC's and to be honest you may bind a back inflate BC of some type more relaxing.

You also said you can't find the dumps easily and can't get the knob in your hand when you do. Frankly that's a matter of diving it more and getting used to it. Some people don't even have a knob, they remove it and have only a string left so there's less entanglement risk. (Not me though).

Here's what I think you need to do, first if you don't like the air2 replace it. That's cheap enough. Second, figure out if the BC really is the correct size for you. If it is then dive in it more often, wear it around the house and find the dumps in the dark. Really you only need one, find your favorite and use it only. Try the bottom dump on it for practice. Forget about the others. Use the hose if you want to when you're more upright, bottom when you're horizontal. Get your trim right, sounds like you have a couple issues here. First find out how much weight you need to be neutral with an empty (500 psi) tank. Now find out where it needs to be to get your trim right. Place it on a belt, if your feet drop move some of it up and vice versa. You'll probably find you don't need as much on the belt as you have and some of it will be up higher on your body. Place it on your tank straps if you need to. Be sure to balance the weight side to side or you will roll over when relaxed. Get it right and you won't. The steel tank up top will only roll you if you start to roll in the first place due to being out of trim.

You'll find it may take you 10 or more dives to get the trim right, when I used a jacket BC it took me 20 dives to finally be happy with my trim. I'd move weights around every dive in small amounts. Finally got it right. It took me 2 dives to get my trim right with a BP/W because the weight was already up high over my lungs and not down low on my hips making me feet low.

There is nothing inherently wrong with your gear given the attention to detail it needs to be right.

I'm making a lot of jumps here, assuming things you haven't said and I may be way off base. I'll ask you this, when you quit moving where do your feet go? Can you stop all movement and just hang motionless or are you pulled in some directions, and which way? At your stops, can you easily hold 20 feet? How about 3 feet? On an empty tank? When you kick and glide, do you stay at the same depth or do you tend to go deeper during the glide or shallower? Where is your head? Is it up down or neutral?

To be honest, I think you'll find if your BC fits properly you can get it to where you like it just fine. PS, if you're weighted right the squeeze should not be that tight.

 

[sambolino44]

Thanks, cummings66. I appreciate the help, but I still think I'd be happier with a different BC.

Reading between the lines the problem isn't so much your gear as it is a lack of practice. -- I have no doubt that I need more practice! -- For example, you say when you dump air you're high, then you crash down. To me that sounds more like you're too heavy and are managing too big of an air bubble in the BC than it is a fault with the dumping. -- I see your point, and in fact, this problem really came out the other day when I forgot to reduce my weight for the second dive (with my tank) after having added weight for the first dive (with a rental tank). --

You say you flip over if you relax, sounds more like a trim problem than anything else. -- Well, yeah, I do have a trim problem, and I've been working on it. But this BC doesn't have any trim weight pockets. -- Can't feel the Velcro on the pockets, sigh, I dive a BP/W and don't have pockets to feel except on my leg. -- Yeah, I think I may have better luck with a BP/W (or maybe a back-inflate BC) and pockets on my suit, too. -- You also mention it moved around on you before you modified it, to me that sounds like it didn't really fit you in the first place and may be too large for you. -- Well, not being an expert, and having to rely on others (like the guy at the shop who helped me pick out this BC), and not even remembering if this model even comes in different sizes, all I can say is, "I'm pretty darn sure that, for this model, the size I have is the best one for me." -- The squeeze you feel is common with many jacket BC's and to be honest you may bind a back inflate BC of some type more relaxing. -- That's what I think, too. --

You also said you can't find the dumps easily and can't get the knob in your hand when you do. Frankly that's a matter of diving it more and getting used to it. -- Fair enough. I think you're right on this one. -- Some people don't even have a knob, they remove it and have only a string left so there's less entanglement risk. (Not me though).

Here's what I think you need to do, first if you don't like the air2 replace it. That's cheap enough. Second, figure out if the BC really is the correct size for you. If it is then dive in it more often, wear it around the house and find the dumps in the dark. Really you only need one, find your favorite and use it only. Try the bottom dump on it for practice. Forget about the others. Use the hose if you want to when you're more upright, bottom when you're horizontal. Get your trim right, sounds like you have a couple issues here. First find out how much weight you need to be neutral with an empty (500 psi) tank. Now find out where it needs to be to get your trim right. Place it on a belt, if your feet drop move some of it up and vice versa. You'll probably find you don't need as much on the belt as you have and some of it will be up higher on your body. Place it on your tank straps if you need to. Be sure to balance the weight side to side or you will roll over when relaxed. Get it right and you won't. The steel tank up top will only roll you if you start to roll in the first place due to being out of trim. -- Here's what I don't understand: by this argument, there is no truly neutral trim. You are always "riding the bubble" to keep from flipping over. As soon as you get off-center, you flip over. Now, maybe I'm naive, but I have the feeling that perhaps it's possible to achieve a situation where your weights are close enough to your center of gravity where that doesn't happen, and you're able to maintain just about any position without a lot of effort. Maybe I'm wrong --

You'll find it may take you 10 or more dives to get the trim right, when I used a jacket BC it took me 20 dives to finally be happy with my trim. I'd move weights around every dive in small amounts. Finally got it right. It took me 2 dives to get my trim right with a BP/W because the weight was already up high over my lungs and not down low on my hips making me feet low. -- This paragraph seems to support my argument. --

There is nothing inherently wrong with your gear given the attention to detail it needs to be right. -- I disagree. I think a jacket-style BC is inherently wrong for me. --

I'm making a lot of jumps here, assuming things you haven't said and I may be way off base. I'll ask you this, when you quit moving where do your feet go? Can you stop all movement and just hang motionless or are you pulled in some directions, and which way? -- If I relax, stop swimming forward, and just go limp, I end up in a position with the bottom of my tank at the lowest point and my feet just a little higher than my head, like I'm sitting in a hammock. -- At your stops, can you easily hold 20 feet? -- I've been using a little less weight every time, and have gotten it down to 16 lbs, and had no problem staying at 15' with 500 PSI. Now, I wasn't totally relaxed, because I was maintaining a prone attitude, but I wasn't fighting to maintain depth. -- How about 3 feet? -- Never tried that. -- On an empty tank? When you kick and glide, do you stay at the same depth or do you tend to go deeper during the glide or shallower? Where is your head? -- Up my... oh, sorry, TOS and all! -- Is it up down or neutral?

To be honest, I think you'll find if your BC fits properly you can get it to where you like it just fine. PS, if you're weighted right the squeeze should not be that tight.

cummings66, I really appreciate your help. Even if I disagree with some of the things you've said, you're right on with a lot of it. I'm the first to admit that I need more practice. And I doubt that the dump pulls on a wing would be any easier to find than mine if I don't practice with them. But I still think if I'd only gotten back-inflate instead of a jacket when I started I wouldn't be so anxious to change it now. Who knows, though? I've been diagnosed with Gear Acquistion Syndrome.

Oh yeah, and the octo? I really do think that's more of a "you say tomato, I say tomato" thing. That doesn't really work unless you say it, does it?

 

[RS]

You should probably try to fine tune your current gear. But here's what I did:

I found a LDS that let me use a BPW for free for about three weeks. After I tried the BP/W, there was no way I was going back to my Knighthawk. Period. I took the loaner BP/W back and got a brand new identical setup (Halcyon SS w/ 40# Eclipse).

My big deal against the Knighthawk was the shoulder straps had a habit of twisting and I have a permanent prob with my left arm that prevents me from fully extending it. Doesn't interfere with any normal daily activities, but my arm doesn't extend all the way and the strap can hang when you suit up. That's it. Before I'd get an arm hung up and silently struggle with getting the shoulder straps on my shoulders, then un-twisting them. But the Halcyon is no problem. Now, I dip my body a little and shrug my shoulders, and I'm done. Then I help my buddies get their knighthawk BC's on straight. But the main point is I have 17 lbs on my back, and it's easy to don and doff, the rig is totally stable and just feels close to you. The rest of the weight is ditchable 12 lbs on a weightbelt. Plus you get the added comfort of having a crotch strap, which amazingly, works great.

But I am still getting used to NOT having three deflator valves, and one of the valves (the butt dump) doesn't have a knob on it, just a string. I need to put a ball on it or something so I can find it with gloves on. SO it's give and take.

Bottom line: go for it if you can afford it. And if you don't like it, your friends will love you for selling all your new scuba gear at cheap prices just to get rid of it!

BTW, despite having all this advice, please note how few dives I have.

 

[sambolino44]

In case anyone is still interested, today I tried attaching two 2-lb weights to the velcro straps on the front of the shoulders of my BC. I think the straps are there to put the hoses under. It certainly wasn't the most secure looking thing, but they didn't flop around very much, and they didn't come off. This time I used my regular tank, a HP 100 steel, and I had 12 lbs on my belt, for a total of 16 lbs. Not sure what the dry weight or buoyancy of all my other gear (lights, knives, SMB, reel, etc) is. I was wearing my 7mm farmer john wetsuit, hood, boots, gloves, negative fins. The dive was max depth 30' with most of the time spent around 20'. My buddy used a LP 72 tank, and we returned to shore with about 2000 psi in my tank. I was cold and tired from the long surface swim, so I didn't hang around to do a bouyancy check with 500 psi at 20'. But...

The shoulder weights improved the trim situation.

Not having too much weight improved the bouyancy control situation.

The added shoulder straps and crotch strap improved the instability situation.

Also, I moved my backup light to my left side pocket, and that makes it a lot easier to drag my hand down the opening of the BC to find the knob for the top right dump valve.

I still think I'd be happier with a different BC.

 

[realdiver7]

You should probably try to fine tune your current gear. But here's what I did:

I found a LDS that let me use a BPW for free for about three weeks. After I tried the BP/W, there was no way I was going back to my Knighthawk. Period. I took the loaner BP/W back and got a brand new identical setup (Halcyon SS w/ 40# Eclipse).

My big deal against the Knighthawk was the shoulder straps had a habit of twisting and I have a permanent prob with my left arm that prevents me from fully extending it. Doesn't interfere with any normal daily activities, but my arm doesn't extend all the way and the strap can hang when you suit up. That's it. Before I'd get an arm hung up and silently struggle with getting the shoulder straps on my shoulders, then un-twisting them. But the Halcyon is no problem. Now, I dip my body a little and shrug my shoulders, and I'm done. Then I help my buddies get their knighthawk BC's on straight. But the main point is I have 17 lbs on my back, and it's easy to don and doff, the rig is totally stable and just feels close to you. The rest of the weight is ditchable 12 lbs on a weightbelt. Plus you get the added comfort of having a crotch strap, which amazingly, works great.

But I am still getting used to NOT having three deflator valves, and one of the valves (the butt dump) doesn't have a knob on it, just a string. I need to put a ball on it or something so I can find it with gloves on. SO it's give and take.

Bottom line: go for it if you can afford it. And if you don't like it, your friends will love you for selling all your new scuba gear at cheap prices just to get rid of it!

BTW, despite having all this advice, please note how few dives I have.

I'm also another diver who liked the KnightHawk, but love the BP/W (Oxycheq Mach V Extreme) I switched over to. Can't ever see going back!

 

[mthirsc]

The problem with BC's is, you can always find a positive review or endorsement of almost any model. So take anyone saying X model is a great BC with a grain of salt. Heck, I have a post or two here praising a BC that I quickly outgrew.

FWIW, I owned two vests, then a back inflate (used it on about five dives), and am now extremely happy with a BP/W. While there's of course all kinds of gear I long for, a different BC is not one of them. A larger selection of wings? Yeah.

As others have said, there is no rush, the most important thing is to keep diving.

 

[drew52]

I also always thought I needed a Back Inflate or BP/W after buying a jacket style bc. I also used to think I messed up with my purchase. I didn't have problems with buoyancy and trim but just felt I bought the wrong thing. Some how I thought a back inflate or wing would be better.

Finally got the Back Inflate and tried a few bp/w's. Guess what I could just as well have saved the cash. There was nothing wrong with my jacket style bc. It seems my suspiscions were flawed. I guess I too had that gear acquisition syndrome. Don't get me wrong I do like my back inflate bc and would have been happy in a bp/w but I didn't really need it. I actually had a perfectly good bc and had no need to spend the money other than to appease my suspicions.

I'd do what Matthew suggests regarding more diving and practice in the current bc provided it fits correctly. Then I'd buy the "upgrade" at some point in the distant future once your current bc actually needs replacing.