The big regulator thread

[Eric Sedletzky]

Dive Rite (and perhaps others) get their regulators from different sources. They may place specific requirements and may make changes to the design to meet their specifications, but they don't build them or even assemble them in house.

Dive Rite has basically three regulators, the 3000, the Hurricane, and the Jetstream.

The 3000 is basically the same regulator as many others (I believe the Salvo, Scubamax, Sea-Elite, etc...etc...etc...), but the 3000 is made to their specifications and all the seals, seats, O-rings, and rubber parts are supposed to be unique to there specifications. All this regulators I believe that are made in a factory in Taiwan, but when I took the DR regulator repair class that was not information that they wanted to share. Personally, I think the DR 3000 is an excellent regulator (a good copy of the Scubapro 156, with metal barrel, but plastic case).

The Hurricane is made by Beuchat and the Jetstream is of course Poseidon. Both of this are also made to there specifications. The Jetstream actually uses the Poseidon Extreme first stage and they added standard pressure relief valve and got rid of the custom LP hose with the built in relief valve.


As DA Aqua Master mentioned above, it is impractical and not cost effective for a small company (or often a large company) to make many things in house.

Using sub-contractors to cut and machine metal is often the cost effective and best way to keep quality control. If you get a batch of parts that don't meat your specifications from a sub, you can reject them and have them redone. If you make them in house and they have a defect, you have to eat them or try to save them somehow and try to use them even if they are not ideal.

It would not be uncommon that some machine parts be made by different sub-contractors on different years or batches.

The behind the scene of who manufactures what can get very complicated and it is probably changing on a regular basis.

One thing about doing stuff in house or farming it out to a foreign country, asside of the job thing, doing it in house the company has absolute and total control over the end precision, quality and materials. Farming stuff out you don't always get what you bargain for. There is also a georgaphical logistic for returns or production observance. I know a few people doing business in China and they have stories to tell about how things really are. They say it can be a nightmare.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree with you that quality can vary when you farm something out, so building quality assurance standards and measures into the contract is vital - as is following up and ensuring your QA people do it prior to accepting the item or lot. That may involve testing each and every item or it may involve random sampling from the lot depending on the item, the manufacturing process, etc.

For example, the DOT only tests 1 in 200 tanks by destructive means - 1 in each lot of 200 tanks - since testing each one to destruction would be pointless (none would survive the QA process to actually be used) and needless as the manufacturing process itself and the alloy used (also tested by lot) does not vary and any minor QA issues (improperly cut threads, neck folds, gross errors in the drawing process, etc) will be caught by non destructive measures such as visaul and hydro static testing.

The point is that it does not matter who makes the parts, what matters is the Quality Assurance program and acceptance specifications put in place by the company who is ordering, receiving and using the parts. For example, I have seen DR regs unassembled and the quality is quite good. I cannot say the same thing about some of the clones of the same reg design. The difference lies in the quality assurance and acceptance standards put in place by the company accepting the parts and selling the regs.

Higher quality standards in the contract (and presumably a higher percentage of parts rejected as being substandard) means potentially higher production costs for the company actually making the parts as they will eat the cost of more substandard parts. That cost is reflected in the agreed upon price in the contract with a higher unit cost for each part. That in turn gets passed on to the consumer buying the reg from the company with higher standards.

The acceptance criteria may involve dimensions, alloys used, processes used (for example different anodizing processes), quality of finish or all of the above. Companies with higher quality standards will pay more for the parts made to tighter or more consistent tolerances and they will have to pass those costs on in the form of higher prices.

It does not mean that every reg from a company with lower quality standards is "bad", it just means there will be more variance in fit or finish in the entire lot of parts received and in turn in the assembled regs. Sometimes it matters, some times it does not depending on what is important in the design. Sometimes the looser tolerance cancel each other out and at other times they combine to create performance issues and you end up having to replace parts that are abetter match for each other.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

.....

The point is that it does not matter who makes the parts, what matters is the Quality Assurance program and acceptance specifications put in place by the company who is ordering, receiving and using the parts. For example, I have seen DR regs unassembled and the quality is quite good. I cannot say the same thing about some of the clones of the same reg design. The difference lies in the quality assurance and acceptance standards put in place by the company accepting the parts and selling the regs......

Good point, and something I had not really considered when looking at the various "clones" that appear to be very similar or identical, i.e. DR, Salvo, Edge, Scubamax, etc., regs. Does this mostly apply to the 2nd stages, which do appear to be "spec'ed" differently by the various companies, or to the 1st stages as well?

Thanks.

Best wishes.

 

[muddiver]

Kirby Morgan regulators are made in Sata Barbara, CA by the same guys in the same shop that make the Superlite diving helments.

Not a big seller outside tech and commercial dive circles so you may never see one. Great regulator and they will sell parts for rebuilding direct to the diver instead of through a "certified" technician/shop.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Kirby Morgan regulators are made in Sata Barbara, CA by the same guys in the same shop that make the Superlite diving helments.

Not a big seller outside tech and commercial dive circles so you may never see one. Great regulator and they will sell parts for rebuilding direct to the diver instead of through a "certified" technician/shop.

How about prices, are they an arm and a leg or not too bad.
That sounds like something I'd like to check out. I'm looking for some alternative that is outstanding quality and something I can rebuild myself. Even if it's pricey but not over the top I would consider it.
I'm not that far away, I could even drive down there and check them out.

 

[Fishpie]

KM doesn't sell direct to the diver. They wouldn't even sell me a mouthpiece for a Superflow 2nd stage.

 

[Luis H]

One thing about doing stuff in house or farming it out to a foreign country, asside of the job thing, doing it in house the company has absolute and total control over the end precision, quality and materials. Farming stuff out you don't always get what you bargain for. There is also a georgaphical logistic for returns or production observance. I know a few people doing business in China and they have stories to tell about how things really are. They say it can be a nightmare.

Not all sub-contracting means going to another country. I know it is very common now a day and a big subject of discussion, but I was actually thinking of the common practice (or at least it used to be very common) of using a local machine shop or at least a machine shop in the US.

There was a time when Sherwood-Selpac used to make parts form many other Scuba manufacturers. They made valves and regulator parts for Dacor, Healthways, White Stag, and probably several others. That was before they actually sold their own Scuba gear directly to the public. Yu can still find many old Healthways valves with the small SS symbol. In the 70's you knew you had a good valve from the companies mentioned above because it was made by Sherwood.

BTW, I don’t mean to imply that using a foreign manufacturer is necessarily bad. Many excellent products are made all over the world, but obviously sub-contracting into another country adds substantially to the logistics of communications, language barriers, business practice difference, engineering standards differences, quality control and inspections, etc... etc...

 

[muddiver]

KM doesn't sell direct to the diver. They wouldn't even sell me a mouthpiece for a Superflow 2nd stage.

Ok, I stand corrected. Call DECA in Santa Barbara and they will sell you any KM part you need. Just like any company that makes gear, they provide parts through a retailer. But, getting KM parts is a whole lot easier than trying to get parts for a Sherwood regulator.

 

[muddiver]

How about prices, are they an arm and a leg or not too bad.
That sounds like something I'd like to check out. I'm looking for some alternative that is outstanding quality and something I can rebuild myself. Even if it's pricey but not over the top I would consider it.
I'm not that far away, I could even drive down there and check them out.

Sorry, I don't know the price on the regulator by it self. I purchased mine with the M48 Supermask (full face mask) for around $500. I am sure the regulator is a lot less. MARVEL lists the mask as $95 extra for the first stage so I would think the SCUBA kit would be reasonably priced. Very simple rig to work on.

Your best bet is: DECA-DIVING EQUIPMENT COMPANY OF AMERICA

or you can try Amron International, Inc - Commercial Diving, Law Enforcement, Hyperbaric Chambers, and Tactical Equipment Supplier but they are usually more expensive.

or pick your favorite Kirby Morgan Dive Systems | Dealer Locations | North America | United States

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Sorry, I don't know the price on the regulator by it self. I purchased mine with the M48 Supermask (full face mask) for around $500. I am sure the regulator is a lot less. MARVEL lists the mask as $95 extra for the first stage so I would think the SCUBA kit would be reasonably priced. Very simple rig to work on.

Your best bet is: DECA-DIVING EQUIPMENT COMPANY OF AMERICA

or you can try Amron International, Inc - Commercial Diving, Law Enforcement, Hyperbaric Chambers, and Tactical Equipment Supplier but they are usually more expensive.

or pick your favorite Kirby Morgan Dive Systems | Dealer Locations | North America | United States

Cool, thanks!